A perfect explanation of SC2 story

Posts: 90
Just a bunch of nerd rage, that kid really needs to get a life....

He seriously spent the entire first part ##!!#ing about a trailer.
Reply Quote
Posts: 7,955
06/22/2011 09:21 PMPosted by Wraith
Just a bunch of nerd rage


pretty much. I dont like the way he exaggerates things like its the end of the world or talks as if the original story was the best story mankind has ever told either. I know he doesnt say that, but he gives that impression.

06/22/2011 09:21 PMPosted by Wraith
He seriously spent the entire first part ##!!#ing about a trailer.


He focuses on small things he doesnt like and blows them out of proportion.
Reply Quote
Posts: 986
so far i've been getting some yes's and no's.

Just about everyone answers yes to the first question, but people who say no that slaves dont have free will know where im going with the second question and take back the first one.


Exactly, because our intuitions on many issues are contradictory. On the first pass most people want to say that slaves do not have freewill and that all humans have freewill, but when we are confronted with that contradiction (that slaves cannot therefore be people), we have to think a little deeper and start weighing which is more important to us:

Slaves ARE people but do not have freewill
-OR-
All humans have freewill

Because they both cannot be simultaneously true. Something has to give, but the process of digging deeper is where we come to understand the topic better. That's why I think, despite there being some matter of of opinion involved, it is good to talk about definitions and try and figure out what in the world WoL's writers actually meant, because it does not appear they gave it much thought.
Reply Quote
Posts: 7,955
Well im sure they did give it much thought, but you also have to consider the delivery of the message. What words would sound better? What fits the atmosphere they were trying to create?

This is from the overmind's memory, that he was created without freewill. This is what he felt, we would have to consult the overmind on what he thought was lack of freewill.

How did the slaves feel when they were slaves? Would it be a stretch to say that if we were to look into their minds and see that they would believe their free will was taken away? At least for some of them?
Edited by Brathearon on 6/25/2011 1:51 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,072
Tassadar doesn't tell Zeratul that the Overmind FELT that he didn't have free will. He tells Zeratul that he was formed without free will.
Reply Quote
Posts: 7,955
06/25/2011 02:20 PMPosted by Chrono
Tassadar doesn't tell Zeratul that the Overmind FELT that he didn't have free will. He tells Zeratul that he was formed without free will.


same way people dont feel like the SC2 story is bad, they say the story is bad. If i read your mind (or someone else's), what would i find regarding that? Some things are implied. If i said that my cell phone is better than someone else's, is that how i feel, or is it how it really is? If i say my food is better than someone else's, is that how i feel, or is that how it really is? If i say SC2's story is much better than SC1's, is that how i feel, or is that how it really is?


read the last thing i wrote

How did the slaves feel when they were slaves? Would it be a stretch to say that if we were to look into their minds and see that they would believe their free will was taken away? At least for some of them?


If you read their minds i bet you will find that their free will was taken away from them.
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,072
You mention examples of opinions. Tassadar was not giving anyone's opinion. He was stating a fact. The Overmind was formed without free will. There's no way around that fact. It is a FACT.

If I read the minds of the slaves I'd find that they were still able to make their own choices and act on them. Some chose to escape, some chose to remain where they were, etc. If I read the Overmind's mind I'd find that as much as he tried to choose his own actions, he was unable to.
Reply Quote
Posts: 7,955
06/25/2011 04:16 PMPosted by Chrono
You mention examples of opinions. Tassadar was not giving anyone's opinion. He was stating a fact. The Overmind was formed without free will. There's no way around that fact. It is a FACT.


This entire thread is trying to "factually" prove these opinions.

06/25/2011 04:16 PMPosted by Chrono
If I read the minds of the slaves I'd find that they were still able to make their own choices and act on them. Some chose to escape, some chose to remain where they were, etc. If I read the Overmind's mind I'd find that as much as he tried to choose his own actions, he was unable to.


unless you agree that they didnt have free will. If i read them, i'd say that they'd have their free will taken away from them.
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,072
You're still confusing free action and free will.
Reply Quote
Posts: 7,955
nobody speaks of "free action" everyone always talks in terms of free will, its even mentioned int he definition of slave. And asking around, even with andrew's way i still had people tell me slaves had no free will.

dictionary.com even says free action is a synonym of free will.

If there are more interpretations of free will available, wouldnt it make sense that the interpretation that fits the situation of the overmind be the one they are referring to?

Chris in the other thread would even agree that slaves didnt have free will.
Edited by Brathearon on 6/25/2011 6:23 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,072
Here's a short explanation written by a philosopher:

"Let’s begin by saying what free will is, and what it isn’t. Free will is not the same as freedom of action. Freedom of action refers to things that prevent a willed action from being realized. For example, being in prison means you are not free to paint the town red. Being in a straight jacket means you are not free to wave hello. Being paralyzed means not being able to move your limbs. These are not issues of free will. Free will means being free to try to escape (or not), to try to wave (or not), to try to move your limbs (or not)."

Reply Quote
Posts: 7,955
but what about a person who is unconscious who cannot think, or move? Do they have free will? Is the overmind restricted in a similar manner? If so, how similar?

06/25/2011 06:33 PMPosted by Chrono
Free will means being free to try to escape (or not),


Are they free to try? I would say that the punishment is hindrance enough. Fear is a different type of restriction than what he is mentioning and has direct effects on your mind and will. Sometimes more direct than being in prison.

Rarely you hear of stories of where people are so terrified they cant even move. Does that sound like they have free will?
06/25/2011 06:33 PMPosted by Chrono
to try to wave (or not), to try to move your limbs (or not).


and what if they arent free to try? Tassadar isnt specific on how the overmind was restricted. We arent sure if tassadar even shares this philosopher's views.
Edited by Brathearon on 6/25/2011 6:50 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,072
They are free to try. If they were not at all free to try to escape then how is it that some DID escape? Just because there is a deterrent attached to that action does not mean they are unable to choose that action.

The Overmind is described as not having free will. He raged within the prison of his own mind. He could neither choose an action nor carry it out. His existence is limited to merely watching from inside his mind the actions he performs as the Dark Voice's directives steer the ship.
Reply Quote
Posts: 7,955
06/25/2011 06:50 PMPosted by Chrono
They are free to try. If they were not at all free to try to escape then how is it that some DID escape?


different people, different minds, different circumstances, different resilience. Not every person was martin luther king.

06/25/2011 06:50 PMPosted by Chrono
Just because there is a deterrent attached to that action does not mean they are unable to choose that action.


depends on the person.

06/25/2011 06:50 PMPosted by Chrono
The Overmind is described as not having free will. He raged within the prison of his own mind. He could neither choose an action nor carry it out. His existence is limited to merely watching from inside his mind the actions he performs as the Dark Voice's directives steer the ship.


Then his existence is meaningless, or else he wouldnt be able to speak, and shouldnt have a mind. he was being controlled yes, he couldnt stop himself from committing deeds that he did not want to do, or potentially harm the things he loved. Within his "prison" he found hope, kerrigan. Whether this is his first time having hope or not is not mentioned or relevant to the story.

What degree of control did he have? he had to follow the will that was forced on him as indicated, and he was doing just that. Being a prisoner of his own mind only explains how much he didnt want to follow this will.
Edited by Brathearon on 6/25/2011 7:04 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,072
Posted by Chrono
Just because there is a deterrent attached to that action does not mean they are unable to choose that action.


depends on the person.

How does this depend on the person? Everyone can approach this problem and make a choice. Some slaves chose to try to escape. Some slaves chose not to try to escape. Whether or not they tried, they still made the choice. Because they have the ability to choose what to do, they have free will.

Reply Quote
Posts: 7,955
06/25/2011 07:05 PMPosted by Chrono
How does this depend on the person? Everyone can approach this problem and make a choice. Some slaves chose to try to escape. Some slaves chose not to try to escape. Whether or not they tried, they still made the choice. Because they have the ability to choose what to do, they have free will.


Some masters were harsh, some were not. Some slave owners had better capabilities of containment, others did not. Some werent in good enough physical condition, others were. Some slave owners were so nice to their slaves that they did not want to leave, others were not. People are different resilience to withstand punishment. One person can stand burning in coal without screaming, while someone else would scream their lungs out and offer all their possessions to make it stop. People are not the same, nor are their situations or history. If someone whoever tried to escape or defy any authority ALWAYS got caught and punished, would they be more likely to escape or try? What if someone knows they are bad at trying to escape, would they even try? What if someone knows he can escape, and never got punished for talking back to authority, would he be more likely to escape?

there are many more reasons why it depends on the person. And these situations can even affect if they believe that escape is even an option. These things affect your ability to even try.
Edited by Brathearon on 6/25/2011 7:17 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,072
Now you're not understanding what choice is.
Reply Quote
Posts: 738
How long is this going to last. The argument is going around in circles.
Reply Quote
Posts: 7,955
06/25/2011 07:22 PMPosted by Chrono
Now you're not understanding what choice is.


you said

06/25/2011 06:50 PMPosted by Chrono
Just because there is a deterrent attached to that action does not mean they are unable to choose that action.


then i said

06/25/2011 06:54 PMPosted by Brathearon
depends on the person.


then you said

06/25/2011 07:05 PMPosted by Chrono
How does this depend on the person? Everyone can approach this problem and make a choice.


Then i go on to explain how some slaves were free to choose that. Other slaves were not. Saying that some escaped and others did not is like saying that everyone in the US was not a slave, therefore the slaves had freewill.
Edited by Brathearon on 6/25/2011 7:37 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 7,955
06/25/2011 07:26 PMPosted by Ragnarok
How long is this going to last. The argument is going around in circles.


3 more pages im guessing =). The entire point is that the OP's point is opinionated, not factual. Its not a perfect explanation of the starcraft story, and if he feels that the SC story is killed, well thats his opinion.

Me and my friends agree that the SC2 campaign was epic and fun. The best part being the prophecy missions.

the only problem i have with what he says is that he talks as if his opinion is factual, when the things he points out are things that could be cleared up if he looked at them correctly, instead of trying to say that the game sucks.

at least the endless loop isnt quite the same as when jhonnyZ pointed it out a few pages back
Wow, this debate is an endless loop:

Why would the Overmind waste her greatest asset against the Protoss on a handful of fleeing Protoss warriors?
Because they are a main threat to his existence!

Then why doesn't the Overmind remain on Char and make sure no Dark Templar escape?
Because he knows where Aiur is!

Then why doesn't he send the whole Swarm to Aiur, where there's no Dark Templar?
Because he doesn't want them to warn Aiur!

Then why doesn't the Overmind remain on Char and make sure no Dark Templar escape?
Because he knows where Aiur is!

Then why doesn't he send the whole Swarm to Aiur, where there's no Dark Templar?
Because he doesn't want them to warn Aiur!

Et cetera, et cetera...

But the fact is, this absurd debate doesn't matter anymore, as it's been confirmed that Kerrigan is the Overmind's key to ensure the Swarm's survival. Ironically, the Dark Templars' intervention gave him a perfectly valid opportunity to leave her behind instead and therefore exploit a loophole in his directive. What initially looked like a non-sensical decision from the Overmind now makes perfect sense and fits his farsighted, calculating nature.

This is a Xanatos Gambit akin to what Ner'zhul's plan with Arthas in WarCraft. Remember, Ner'zhul was also the Big Bad's slave; he had his free will taken away from him, and was forced to do Kil'Jaeden's bidding. However, it didn't prevent him from coming up with a way to sabotage his master's plans.
Edited by Brathearon on 6/25/2011 7:57 PM PDT
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]