StarCraft® II

A perfect explanation of SC2 story

@ Daggoth:
I'd agree if it weren't for a few things.

1) He would have to have known about...well everything regarding Valerian...in advance. He would have had to know that he was after the artefacts, that he would accept help from Tychus, that they somehow knew what the artefacts would do before they had ever seen the first piece, and that he would take the dominion fleet in secret to attack Char.

2) The zerg invasion had not happened yet. He had no intel on what the Zerg have been up to. The Zerg would have annihilate them if they had attacked if there were no invasion, as the only way they had a chance was because a lot of the Zerg had scattered due to the invasion. Furthermore, they would have had no idea that Kerrigan would even be on the planet. It would have been a completely blind invasion. I doubt that Valerian would have attempted such a thing if it weren't for the fact that the Zerg had already invaded.
Edited by LovelyMines on 6/6/2011 7:56 PM PDT
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06/06/2011 07:50 PMPosted by Triceron
Kerrigan wasn't spared because he loved her, she was spared due to necessity.


she was spared in BW too because they though the overmind was making her evil, and now she was free from him. We saw what happened after that.
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People get betrayed by kerrigan (who didnt see that comming?)
Duran tricks UED to dismantle psy disrubter (how did they not see he is infested!?)
That UED commander gets convinced by duran that stukov building the psy disrupter means he wants to kill him, since when do psy disrupters have ANY effect on humans?!


These are actually completely Psychologically and philosophically possible, which are at the core of what made sc1/bw so much more compelling than WoL. Characters did things that were not logical to an outside viewer, but when looked at from the characters perspectives with the characters personal and social contexts in mind they made sense.

06/06/2011 05:01 PMPosted by Brathearon
If the protoss were able to hurt the new overmind so much to put it into remission, why didnt they just kill it!?!


You got me on this one. There might be a reason that I/we cannot remember at the moment, but I do think it would have been better if that option had not been available in the mission.
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06/06/2011 08:06 PMPosted by LovelyMines
These are actually completely Psychologically and philosophically possible, which are at the core of what made sc1/bw so much more compelling than WoL. Characters did things that were not logical to an outside viewer, but when looked at from the characters perspectives with the characters personal and social contexts in mind they made sense.


that argument can be made for every point made in those videos.


@ Daggoth:
I'd agree if it weren't for a few things.

1) He would have to have known about...well everything regarding Valerian...in advance. He would have had to know that he was after the artefacts, that he would accept help from Tychus, that they somehow knew what the artefacts would do before they had ever seen the first piece, and that he would take the dominion fleet in secret to attack Char.


its his own son, why wouldnt he know everything about valerian? His obsession with archaeology is the reason arcturus and him dont have a good relationship (as good as it could be anyway). Valerian obviously knew something about the artifacts, and was probably planning on approaching raynor in the first place.


2) The zerg invasion had not happened yet. He had no intel on what the Zerg have been up to. The Zerg would have annihilate them if they had attacked if there were no invasion, as the only way they had a chance was because a lot of the Zerg had scattered due to the invasion. Furthermore, they would have had no idea that Kerrigan would even be on the planet. It would have been a completely blind invasion. I doubt that Valerian would have attempted such a thing if it weren't for the fact that the Zerg had already invaded.


Im not sure what you are saying here. Ill just say if it were so easy and risk free, Mengsk wouldnt have gotten his hands dirty with tichus.
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ill be back tomorrow sometime to shred that 4th vid. I didnt watch the 3rd video because it says that chris metzen hates starcraft, which doesnt sound like its interesting, or that the story even reflects that.

All these videos are pretty much nonsense though, and looking at BW through rose colored glasses. I bet if SC2 came out first, and SC1 was a prequel he'd HATE BW with a passion.
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what really gets on my nerves is people who defend the WOL story as if it was their own creation. they make excuses for things even they themselves can see are faulty, just like someone justifying their poor performance. what astonishes me is why they do this??

starcraft 2 WOL is not your piece of work, if someone says it's !#%#y there is no need for you to defend it! In fact you should also be pissed after all you payed for this, you want your money's worth.

just think of it if blizzard fired metzen and his crew and hired some legit writers, to bring us an interesting, engaging, and sensible story for the next installments, not only would it be good for those of us hating on the story now, but also for you who are defending it right now!

there is no way a better story will be a lose situation for you guys, it's not like you will miss the crappy story metzen and bros wanted to make, since you will enjoy the new story direction. and don't say I like the current story, cause how are you guys sure you will not like a better written and planed out story than this one, trust me you guys will.


the whole point is, even if I like a specific story (like lets say the first starcraft) I will not and should not deny it's faults!!! why?
cause it can be improved, I m not saying reject a story for some minor issues with it's plot, but I am saying that you should not deny the issues.
being critical is what keeps the writers and developers on their toes to provide a quality product. if blizzard realized that a poor story would create an up roar and even turn some away from purchasing later installments, you can be sure they would take the story hella seriously and try their best and not settle for mediocre quality.

so do not defend unconditionally!! and voice your own issues with the game and story.
Edited by mengskic on 6/6/2011 10:00 PM PDT
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06/06/2011 08:19 PMPosted by Brathearon
that argument can be made for every point made in those videos.


Then make the argument; if you'd like I'll post my exact reasoning for any sc1/bw scenario you would like about why it was psychologically and philosophically interesting if you'll say why the SC2 decision are as well.

One of my critiques about WoL is that the issues and decisions are either not that interesting in these respects or are inconsistent with how the characters behaved in the original.

its his own son, why wouldnt he know everything about valerian? His obsession with archaeology is the reason arcturus and him dont have a good relationship (as good as it could be anyway). Valerian obviously knew something about the artifacts, and was probably planning on approaching raynor in the first place.


Arcturus supposedly didn't know why Valerian took half the fleet and that he was working with Raynor. I suppose that it is possible that it was part of his master plan to begin with though.

Im not sure what you are saying here. Ill just say if it were so easy and risk free, Mengsk wouldnt have gotten his hands dirty with tichus.


What I'm trying to say is that for his plan to make sense he would have had to know about the Zerg invasion before it ever started...which he didn't. (The writers at blizzcon knew that this was a problem, one not knowing how to rectify the problem while the other said what *his* version of events was, which is that Tychus was originally planted simply as a mole)

All these videos are pretty much nonsense though, and looking at BW through rose colored glasses. I bet if SC2 came out first, and SC1 was a prequel he'd HATE BW with a passion.


This is somewhat true. But you need to remember that SC1 did indeed come first. The problem is that SC2 is not faithful to SC1. If SC2 came first then SC1 would not be faithful to SC2 and thus the same problem would emerge.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the expectations for starcraft 2 are indeed greater for a few reasons:

1) Technology has progressed: There are more expectations aesthetically and gameplay-wise.
2) Development time: SC2 had years more development than SC1, meaning that it should be far more complete.
3) Larger budget: SC2 has a wayyyy larger budget than SC1 had.
4) Character driven/depth focused story: Because of this in depth focus, plot holes are a greater problem. By having more dialogue and more missions to tell less, there should be less problems in the plot. Therefore, we can be more critical about certain types of plotholes in SC2 than in SC1 due to an expectation brought about by the storytelling direction that they chose.

Essentially when few details are given the audience is able to add in details themselves to fill holes. As more details are given, however, not only are there less holes to fill, they are also harder to fill due to having more information to incorporate. Plotholes occur when it is really difficult, or require large leaps of faith, to come up with details to fill in the holes. This is the case with the Tychus situation.
Edited by LovelyMines on 6/6/2011 11:45 PM PDT
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Then make the argument; if you'd like I'll post my exact reasoning for any sc1/bw scenario you would like about why it was psychologically and philosophically interesting if you'll say why the SC2 decision are as well.

One of my critiques about WoL is that the issues and decisions are either not that interesting in these respects or are inconsistent with how the characters behaved in the original.


I believe they are entirely consistent with the way the characters were, i can explain any situation. For example, raynor was talking big, after years of walking through the snowstorm so to speak, the morality of himself and his people changed him, same goes for zeratul. He murdered his mother, learns that the xel'naga are trying to kill him, then sees both the terran and the protoss die. That sort of stuff will eventually change people.

06/06/2011 11:24 PMPosted by LovelyMines
What I'm trying to say is that for his plan to make sense he would have had to know about the Zerg invasion before it ever started...which he didn't. (The writers at blizzcon knew that this was a problem, one not knowing how to rectify the problem while the other said what *his* version of events was, which is that Tychus was originally planted simply as a mole)


Im not sure why mengsk would have to know about the zerg invasion. He finds out about the artifact, so he sends tichus to go and kill kerrigan with it (wherever she may be). He didnt know that raynor vowed to kill her, he doesnt know if raynor has the guts to do it, he didnt even know the relationship between raynor and phoenix. If tichus couldnt get to kerrigan, he'd just pull the plug, plain and simple. Thats why tichus was researching about her.

I really dont see plotholes any bigger than the BW ones.
Edited by Brathearon on 6/7/2011 1:09 AM PDT
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06/06/2011 09:17 PMPosted by Brathearon
ill be back tomorrow sometime to shred that 4th vid. I didnt watch the 3rd video because it says that chris metzen hates starcraft, which doesnt sound like its interesting, or that the story even reflects that.


Heh... you don't have to, really. It's not as if it's going to change anything.
Edited by JohnnyZeWolf on 6/7/2011 5:28 AM PDT
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the zerg swarm came as was foretold, and the protoss, first born of the gods, rose to fight them.


Ok, so this quote here causes him so much QQ (EDIT: i take it back, this video is the only story related reason that he QQs). Where in this quote are the terran mentioned? Does it mention the events of brood war or SC1? This quote refers to the time BEFORE SC! This prophecy was told and the events in this prophecy happened ALL BEFORE SC. Long before. And then he goes on to say that the SC story was killed because of it? Give me a break.

I guesss if a native american said they'd meet more people from across the ocean (after they saw the first people), that means he foretold all of US history right?

He then proceeds to QQ so much about the voice acting that its sick. After all of the time i spent listening to HIS voice too. Not to mention that its ENTIRELY HIS OPINION. He acts like he speaks for every single person who plays SC2. Guess what? I think the voice acting is better than SC1. SC1's "voice acting" was just talking, there was no acting!

Wow this guy, he just finds reasons to QQ over nothing. Why doesnt he QQ over why duran in SC1 first helps the UED kill megnsk, and then saves him. Sure he is infested and not who he seems to be even to kerrigan, still doesnt explain these actions. Speaking of saving him, why does raynor and the protoss save mengsk at all? And look at that timing, when he has nothing left, yeah great.

Aldaris's actions in BW are stupid to, he doesnt complain about that. After finding out that the matriarch is infested he does the only possible thing that could doom his entire race, instead of TELLING someone, which could potentially save the entire race and prevent the actions that happened in the BW zerg campaign.

Oh, how about how zeratul thinks he will get back his matriarch if he kills the UED overmind? What was his first clue? Was it the time she killed aldaris? The time she killed phoenix? Or how about the fact that she will control all of the zerg after this and wont be threatened by the protoss to return her at all? Oh and then she (DT matriarch) gets infested big surprise. Why doesnt he QQ about that. But he thinks zeratul was "smart" in SC1

Oh wait... If she can infest DTs.... why didnt she just infest DTs to kill the UED overmind in the first place? Geez BW plotholes are unbearable.
Edited by Brathearon on 6/7/2011 8:58 AM PDT
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Oh wait... If she can infest DTs.... why didn't she just infest DTs to kill the UED's Overmind in the first place? Geez, BW plotholes are unbearable.


Or arrange for the Matriarch to send some Dark Templars off-world and into a trap. Much more dastardly and cunning than destroying an entire Protoss city and blowing up Raszagal's secret.
Edited by JohnnyZeWolf on 6/7/2011 8:41 AM PDT
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so do not defend unconditionally!! and voice your own issues with the game and story.


Don't assume we're defending it unconditionally. What we're arguing is against the people who are tying on the Nostalgia Glasses *way* too tight and thinking that SC1 was the perfect story, when in fact, it was not. What makes it worse is that these swivel chair commandos are trying to push *their* ideas as to how to write a good story, when they have yet to show themselves as capable writers in the first place, when in reality, they're just crying that SC2 isn't another Brood War.

I've been watching B-Grade movies and reading B-grade stories for years. I know a bad story when I see one and Starcraft's is fairly common when taken at face value. And the fact is, SC2 story isn't new. Even SC1's story isn't new! It's all in the execution and frankly both SC1 and SC2 do good at how they execute their story in the time they were released.

That's where the peanut gallery's missing the mark. Is Blizzard infallible? Of course not and they should be held accountable for that, however, they're certainly in a better position as to how to tell a story via a video game medium than some of the people here on the forums.
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Those were so full of truth it was shameful. And very funny.
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06/07/2011 09:06 AMPosted by Iliya
What we're arguing is against the people who are tying on the Nostalgia Glasses *way* too tight and thinking that SC1 was the perfect story, when in fact, it was not.


I would probably emphasize the word "way" a little more.

so do not defend unconditionally!! and voice your own issues with the game and story.


Oh, i dont defend the BW story at all, everyone else is though.
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No, not "everyone".

There are some people on this forum, including myself, who don't find BW that good as well.
Edited by JohnnyZeWolf on 6/7/2011 10:40 AM PDT
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Well the guy was an idiot and spent most of his time talking about cinematics that weren't played twice and a third of it making jokes that weren't funny. Moving on
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How to explain, how to explain:

The story felt so-underdeveloped. It honestly felt dumbed down and childish. You may not have liked SC1 and BW's story, but they were mature, while SC2's story had the complexity of Dr. Seuss in space with guns. I may have found it awesome if I was about 7 years old or younger.

The characters: They just were too inconsistant. Jimmy goes from swearing to kill Kerrigan to wanting to bang her again. Zeratul goes from dark and complex to direct and simple. Kerrigan goes from Queen %%!#% of the Universe to whatever the hell she is in SC2.

The plot: Ug. Yeah, the variable mission order would throw a monkey wrench in the plot, but that is not the problem. I did like the variable mission order. The problem is soo many instances reek of poor writing and just blatant lack of common sense. Jimmy sobers up fast.
Character development is non-existent. They get introduced and that's about it. Huge factions either pop out of nowhere, such as the Tal'Darim, or have no impact whatsoever, such as the Umojans.

I keep comparing the SC2's campaign to the movie Avatar: The visuals were excellent, it was awesome the first time around, and then you think about it and realize the writing was an insult to your intelligence. All things considered, it could've been a hell of a lot better.

SC lore has gone from dark edgy bravery and backstabbing to a one star romantic comedy.
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I believe they are entirely consistent with the way the characters were, i can explain any situation. For example, raynor was talking big, after years of walking through the snowstorm so to speak, the morality of himself and his people changed him, same goes for zeratul. He murdered his mother, learns that the xel'naga are trying to kill him, then sees both the terran and the protoss die. That sort of stuff will eventually change people.


Ok, walk me through Raynor's decision to save Kerrigan. What makes it interesting psychologically or philosophically; what can we find that is interesting if we look past the obvious and uninteresting motives of love and a prophecy dictating that she must live.

Im not sure why mengsk would have to know about the zerg invasion. He finds out about the artifact, so he sends tichus to go and kill kerrigan with it (wherever she may be). He didnt know that raynor vowed to kill her, he doesnt know if raynor has the guts to do it, he didnt even know the relationship between raynor and phoenix. If tichus couldnt get to kerrigan, he'd just pull the plug, plain and simple. Thats why tichus was researching about her.


Why would Tychus or Raynor be needed under this plan? Why not just dig them up himself and launch an invasion himself? Why have the extra wildcards?

He then proceeds to QQ so much about the voice acting that its sick. After all of the time i spent listening to HIS voice too. Not to mention that its ENTIRELY HIS OPINION. He acts like he speaks for every single person who plays SC2. Guess what? I think the voice acting is better than SC1. SC1's "voice acting" was just talking, there was no acting!


Consistency is one of the main reasons for this critique. For example, Zeratul is voiced and portrayed in one way during SC1/BW and a different way in SC2. They are different versions of the same character and have different connotations. His voice acting in SC1 was calm, collected, confident, and full of wisdom. The SC2 voice acting is mystical, slow, and prone to emotion. If SC2 was a standalone it would be fine, but it's not. If we reversed it and said that the SC2 version came first and the SC1 version came second, then the SC1 version would be problematic.

06/07/2011 08:29 AMPosted by Brathearon
Why doesnt he QQ over why duran in SC1 first helps the UED kill megnsk, and then saves him.


Because Duran does not find Mengsk a threat at all to his overall plan. What happens to the Terrans and the dominion do not really matter to him. All he wanted was to make sure that the second overmind would be eliminated. This is the type I mean by psychologically and philosophically interesting; if you just take it at face value it doesn't make sense. Look deeper and it does.

06/07/2011 08:29 AMPosted by Brathearon
Sure he is infested and not who he seems to be even to kerrigan, still doesnt explain these actions.


He was never infested; it was just an act. That's why he was able to betray Kerrigan so easily. If he was truly infested he would have been bound to her will.

Speaking of saving him, why does raynor and the protoss save mengsk at all? And look at that timing, when he has nothing left, yeah great.


Kerrigan needed the psi emitters.

Aldaris's actions in BW are stupid to, he doesnt complain about that. After finding out that the matriarch is infested he does the only possible thing that could doom his entire race, instead of TELLING someone, which could potentially save the entire race and prevent the actions that happened in the BW zerg campaign.


What do we know of Aldaris from SC1? He's headstrong and does not trust the Dark Templar in the slightest. He also damns anyone who would even speak with them. At the end of SC1 we see him repent of that a little, but in BW he relapses due to the DT leader being manipulated/controlled.

So the question is why doesn't he say anything? Well, if we look at his character, he does not easily trust people. He doesn't know who might also be under Kerrigans sway and therefore decides that the most prudent option would be to take matters into his own hands and retake command of all the protoss. It actually would have been against his character to say anything to those who work with and accept the Dark Templar. Even trusting those that followed him would be a mistake for him, because it was not necessary. He could appeal to the other protoss that did not trust the DT without ever having to reveal what he knew in order to incite his rebellion.
Edited by LovelyMines on 6/7/2011 12:13 PM PDT
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Oh, how about how zeratul thinks he will get back his matriarch if he kills the UED overmind? What was his first clue? Was it the time she killed aldaris? The time she killed phoenix? Or how about the fact that she will control all of the zerg after this and wont be threatened by the protoss to return her at all? Oh and then she (DT matriarch) gets infested big surprise. Why doesnt he QQ about that. But he thinks zeratul was "smart" in SC1


Zeratul highly reveres the Matriarch as is common in tribal societies. Tribal elders are to be obeyed and respected to the utmost by all members of the tribe. He has known her for hundreds of years and respects her utterly.

So why would he kill the second overmind? Two reasons. First would be that his only chance to save the matriarch was to do as Kerrigan had said and trust that she would uphold her end of the bargain. Due to the respects and admiration he has for the matriarch, he feels that he must try it. Secondly, the overmind is indeed a greater threat than Kerrigan, which has actually been shown to be true. If the overmind had matured it would have undoubtably went straight after the protoss again, whereas Kerrigan has not really attacked them ever since she came into power. Therefore, he also did it because it was in his best interest.

06/07/2011 08:29 AMPosted by Brathearon
Oh wait... If she can infest DTs.... why didnt she just infest DTs to kill the UED overmind in the first place?


Good point. Maybe she could only manipulate their minds but not their bodies so she needed to get the leader in order to get others to actually act. Another possibility would be that it would be too obvious if a bunch of DT's just got up and followed Kerrigan.

Regardless, you've got a good point.



I also want to reiterate that due to the decision to add more details to SC2 means that it is much more open to character critique. SC1 was event driven, as the main focus was around the large events of the universe, such as toppling a government and invading a homeworld. They did not really try to flesh out the characters because that's not what the story was about. This is actually one of the things that makes SC1/BW interesting. We can actually look deep and find interesting personal and social motives behind what appears to be illogical decisions even though the game was about large scale conflicts.

In SC2 they are trying to show the motives and thoughts of characters more. Most of the actual conflicts were small scale, I.E. helping some colonists, collecting some artefacts, breaking into a news station, breaking open a prison etc. There is much more emphasis on developing characters, which means that the characters and their decisions should be extremely well polished and well done. The more details that are added, the more solid the explanation needs to be.

Certain stories fall flat on this attempt while others are praised for how well everything weaves together to form a beautiful and well crafted story.
Edited by LovelyMines on 6/7/2011 12:08 PM PDT
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