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Not at all, but if you think of it from both a logical point of view or from a lore point of view.
While some of the changes make sense, Especially for protoss.
Dragoons were removed but they were clumsy, hard to move around, and you couldn't fit many in a transport. They were replaced by the faster more agile stalkers, but their tanking anti-armor role was given to immortals. Scouts were replaced by void rays, phoenix replace corsairs. The Judicator caste was wiped out by the zerg explaining the absence of arbiters. Reavers were immobile and expensive to maintain, so Collosus were reactivated. The numbers of protoss were dindling so sentries were put in, but there's no reason to remove Dark Archons other than the fact that they were unbanned by a mind controlled raszagal,
There's no room for any protoss unit to return except for dark archons.......Overall the protoss have improved. Previously they didn't have any harrasment units at all, and now they have phoenix and stalkers to do that.
Overall the terran have improved as well, but in the process they lost something that had an important role, same with zerg. But there's nothing really missing from the protoss that leaves a void.
I agree, most of the units that people want brought back would be superfluous, but some definitely could return, but they don't need to return exactly as they were before. BTW don't you find it strange that none of the broodwar units returned in either multiplayer or the campaign (except the medic).
The one thing protoss needs right now is an affordable mobile surface to air unit that doesn't cost a lot of gas (Compare to zerg queen and terran marine). None of the original or broodwar units could fill this role, it has to be a new unit.
Someone said something about lurkers being too parallel to infestors. For a while, I agreed, but then thought it over. Lurkers aren't like infestors in that:
-can attack while still underground, forcing players without detection into bad positions to avoid them
-don't have such a tedious tech tree
all in all, these zerg need a siege unit that doesn't have a bad tech tree OR bio ball counter that has a huge tech tree. Balance can always be worked out, and I remembered there being another thread about zerg needing a "solid" unit. Well, lurkers would be multi-purpose easy to get unit for zerg. Now you might say, "hey! zerg is a reactionary race, they need no solid unit, because they can always counter."
Normally, I would agree with you, but lurkers would bring zest to the field, and if they're TOO good, than blizzard can nerf them. I wanted to play zerg, but found that it had no solid build/unit, so i went terran and got the marine, which early game, is good all around.
Sorry Quirriff, but I must respectfully disagree. As tempting as it is to start in on phoenix, lets do stalkers first.
The stalker as I mentioned before is the only the fast protoss ground unit. I agree that Blizzard intended it to fulfill more a skirmisher/harasser role, but that isn't what happened. For its cost the stalker gives too little damage and receives too much in return. For one stalker you can get almost two roaches or a marauder with change, both of which will @#$@ the stalker. They are its counters so that's not a problem at first glance except that this means in addition to there being easy to grab counters for the unit, it is also fairly easy to skew the unit/counter-unit ratio in your favor far enough to win the game.
Especially in higher levels of play, your opponents know exactly how much everything costs and how badly each loss will hurt you. If you lose even a few stalkers to harassment, unless they inflicted devastating destruction (which I sincerely doubt) they have failed utterly at harassment because now your opponent knows you don't have the army strength to resist him/her (please also see my last comment about the shields) This is also ignoring the fact that I'm pretty sure you're envisioning blink stalkers doing this harassment, which requires a 150/100 building and a 150/150 upgrade in addition to other costs you already have in the stalkers. By that point in the game any decent opponent will be extremely prepared to counter the alleged harasser unit because as you mentioned earlier almost all protoss build stalkers.
As an aside, no the stalker most assuredly does NOT beat the mutalisk in dps. Remember the mutalisk has bouncing glaives so while the first strike is one damage less that a stalker (for unarmored) that attack also hits additional targets. I'd also be willing to bet that the mutalisk's attack is faster, or at least just as fast as the stalker's.
F.Y.I., the Protoss got screwed on that exchange. Sorry had to put that out there for BW's sake. At least the corsair could take a hit and give back as good as it got in the air though.
Alright let's touch on the phoenix...
First off, let's give credit where credit is due. The mutalisk is the best harassment unit in the game. Even two non-zerg players can be man enough to admit that. I may hate the things while they're gleefully trashing my base, but damn do I admire them too.
But seriously, yes I am aware of the phoenix. It shows up in maybe five percent of my builds and let me explain why. The idea of a harassing unit is one that is easy to get (think of all those damned zerglings ;) ) and that if not expendable then at least inexpensive enough that one or two can be built without noticeably weakening the main army.
The phoenix can be used for harassment if you have like four or five of them and let them pool their energy. Given their cost 150/100 if I recall they are a collosal failure in this regard. They eat gas like its nobody's business which severely hamstrings the tech level of the main army. Worse, they cannot even attack ground targets! Now yes, that handy graviton beam does let them pick up A ground unit and then the other phoenixes can hit it, but each phoenix can probably only do this one or two times before they are out of energy.
Yes they are fast, but how valuable is that when speed is literally all they have? Unless you're kiting overlords, phoenixes are very nearly worthless in combat. The vikings you seem to find so much fault in annihilate them, as do mutalisks unless you have the micro of a god to keep them at exactly their maximum range.
Five or six phoenixes will put you back enough resources that someone who builds even a single missile turrent or spore crawler in their min lines can feel free to wipe you away because the phoenixes are absolutely helpless against static def, and you consequently are about to be absolutely helpless because you were stupidly making phoenixes while your opponent was making literally anything else
With the zerg's loss of lurker yes I agree, but again we see things differently for terran. The terran have no holes at present which is the problem. The viking is slower than its equivalents, yes. It is also mass produced, more powerful, and possessing a longer (pronounced seige) range than either of its equivalents. With its ability to land and join the ground forces or stay airborne and assassinate priority targets from out of range *cough* collusus *cough* there is nothing wrong at all with the viking. As I mentioned earlier if anything the terran might benifit from an (I would hope fairly expensive) upgrade to let vikings boost their speed/accel. for a couple of seconds after researched to let them get one last volley off on targets that are fleeing or to help them flee as the case might be.
Now if in your mind your thinking of countering mutalisks with vikings then that's another matter. Vikings are anti-capital ships just like wraiths were. They (unlike the phoenix) have a specialty but keeping up with the mutas is not it. They're meant to be overrun by mutas since zerg food is entirely in air and not particularly easy to defend otherwise. If that is the hole you see, I'd recommend thors. Even three can nearly one shot a whole cluster of mutas. Combined with terran radar towers you shouldn't have any problems shuffling to meet a muta attack in time.
Really the stalker is already sitting on this role, it just sucks at it. Rather than making the stalker even less useful, it would probably be better to just make the stalker's a bit more durable with something like extra armor or a shield battery building to recharge their shields.
Baneling Launcher unit. A large slow moving unit that flings banelings, which u have to produce.
In other words you make a bunch of banelings, tell them to gather on the unit, and the unit proceeds to fire banelings at the cost of 1 near by baneling.
The Unit has a chance to stun or daze a target in the area of dmg for 1 (or less seconds) either that or a chance to increase dmg radius by 25% of the baneling's current radius.
That is what I want from the zerg, in a way its like a siege tank but it fits the zerg more you know.
The Unit would be very slow attacking meaning it would be best for you to keep a few banelings behind (if you mass banelings) while still sending the bulk of your banelings to hit the enemy.
Then when you think about it, it kind of replaces the main idea of the zerg which is swarming the enemy with numbers, so...
What??? did the zerg infest reavers or something?, no, Zerg needs an earlier seige unit, yes, terran air, slow as hell, nitro ability sounds good enough to me but Protoss, Pheonix gets the job done if you can use it
Edited by chad on 6/14/2011 8:46 AM PDT
I think units from brood war/ SC1 would seem to be boring, and I do want SC2 to have a bit of its own flavor. But I'd prefer if it SC2 would be SC1 with new tactics, strategies, and units, but not shafting the old ones. Goliath would be an anti-tech unit IMO, that would be different from X or Y. I think they would be too easily massed though, and so they would have to be a bit under-powered to make up for their universality. If you notice in SC1, all of the units who could attack about anything were easily kited, but it's not the same in SC2 (I believe). In SC2, they're not as easily kited, but aren't as powerful. Bad macro instead of bad micro. Also, I would like to see a micro-intensive yet non-harassing unit for terran (other than stimmed bio ball, which gets a bit boring after a while). diamond backs would be great to fill this role, as they are slow, yet they can move while shooting. As for vikings, they seem to be used against zerg and terran more than protoss (unless the protoss mass colossi). I think they're fine where they are, and should remain slow to make for high DPS and high HP.
If I had to pick, I think each race could use:
Ya know blizzard could resurect the Purifier, and not the mothership it was a dark templar based unit and it came out of a gateway and had an upgrade at the twilight council. I would need new mechanics because the only reason they trashed it was that it was too strong vs zerg, mabey its able to hit more units the more kills it gets (up to 3) not a splash attack but it specifically targets those 3 units.
Stats:100 shields 90hp
Attack: Purification Beam Damage: 6 +2 light
Upgrade: Increase speed by .5
thats just an idea
The protoss races are more unified now, so dark templar become normal archons. Adding dark archons would be a retcon, and would mean that DTs wouldn't be able to become archons any more (not that anyone ever uses them like that anyway)
The Dark Templar would like to have a chat with you.
For the campaign I'd like to build some of the massive buildings we saw on char, perhaps using multiple drones to make them? Or how about a unit that can jump over buildings to bypass walls? A protoss anti-air area of effect unit would be nice too. Or how about something simply ludicrous such as a flying unit that drops down to crush ground units spell like (aka stomp but from the air) before rising to the skies again, it would need special shields or an incredibly strong hull to survive that fall. A pylon upgrade for the toss that will double or triple the damage of the cannons powered by it and possibly add some shield armour (late tech for toss). A zerg unit evolved from the lurker would be fun, one that rather than shooting an attack will burrow, run under the enemy units and shoot up from the ground to attack
For the multiplayer I'm speaking as a spectator: I want to see more upgrade options for protoss (more abilities both passive and active? maybe a new tech path?), more viable unit combinations for zerg and less mass marine siege tank from terran (though that may just be players not wanting to play with the higher tech of terran)
and cheesy though it may be, all the units start dancing when you win and before you get back to the menu
People say Blizzard won't bring back the Lurker because it doesn't fill a unique roll. As far as I know, the Zerg doesn't have an AoE line attacker tha attacks while burrowed. Zerg defense is weak right now without Lurkers or Dark Swarm. Zerg lacks the ability to secure a choke point and establish map control, which is imperative because Zerg requires to be at least one base ahead of Protoss or Terran.
I realize this game is balanced around 1v1 play, but here is a video from a team game in Brood War where I was left to fight two players on my own.
Some extra videos showing Lurkers protecting a choke point. The burrowed Lurkers don't create pathing problems with all the Melee Zerg units. Zerg units can stand on top of the Lurkers to protect them and the overlapping AoE attacks punish players that simply A-click their units into a choke. Roaches are short range, and Zerglings, Banelings and Ultralisks are melee. Zerg needs units that won't get in the way like the Lurker.
Starcraft 2 Lurker:
Edited by Migrax on 6/14/2011 11:17 PM PDT
Putting it out here now.
Yes. It did. For SC1.
Those units were filling gaps in SC1's arsenal that balanced out gameplay. Mutas were too effective so they gave everyone a form of AA with some kind of splash. Terran bio was next to useless and stims underused, so they gave Terran the medic. Zerg lacked siege so they gave them lurkers.
But those were for SC1. SCII has different issues. MAYBE the Lurker could come back and fill the role of the mid-game siege unit. But you wouldn't replace phenioxes with corsairs just for nostalgia sake, or add in medics just because. Like he said, balance > nostalgia.
Edited by Subsourian on 6/17/2011 3:15 PM PDT
In truth... I want to see new units for my taste and needs. Not just for multiplayer, but for the single-player, AND the map editor as well. Excluding the cerebrate.
I don't care if they are dead or not. I just want them for the starcraft map editor. From my point of view, they would be GREAT special structures for broods, and I kind of miss those skinned covered psionic larva creatures... I'm just saying, it would be great for custom games.
When I saw the yetis for HOTS trailer, I was so happy. I found that the only interesting critter in the entire game was the larva, and that was because they burrowed. The other things just walked around aimlessly, and had very low health. Some new multiplayer maps with attacking critters would be interesting
New Marauder Suits
I don't want a revamped marauder, I want a new unit similar to that of the marauder, except with a large artillery cannon on its back, and it can melee people with its fist. Similar to how the fire bat skin was transferred to the marauder, It would be cool to see such a unit, a bio version of a tank, without the siege, more mobile, and probably less damage and range. Would be cool.
Terran Structure Fighter Thing
A structure built as a soldier from an SCV, similar to the early concept of the Thor. Building a 2 by 2 structure which, like a siege tank or a viking, which transfers from a defensive structure to a mobile attacking one.
A unit replacing the aspect of an easy to make, although not cheap and vulnerable unit to replace the longed lurker that other zerg players want... which I do not. Got the idea from an insect, which mixes chemicals together which shoots out liquid content from its abdomen like a cannon, even making explosive sounds. It could act like a Gatling gun, taking a few seconds to aim and fire, and it does a repeated amount of damage, with it doing damage to armored units with the fired content
Not infested terran, but biologically engineered terran, inserted with zerg DNA instead of the virus that infects most other life. I don't expect this for multiplayer, but the aspect of it for singleplayer would be cool, such as allowing hydralisk/terran crossbreeds, with others such as roach, deflier, changeling, and other mixes. Similar to that of a ghost, although more zerg and biological than psionic. Be cool to replace the mercenaries, since the only thing shown is the mutagen and the kerrigan upgrades, which replace the terran unit upgrades and the science upgrades, leaving out mercs. Just an Idea.
A protoss machine
We've got probes, observers, sentires, and colossus. Add in one that is a Heavily shielded unit, armed with abilities capable of absorbing energy and life. For example, it could be able to transfer the energy of its enemies, and add it to its shield points. Or it can steal energy from an enemy, and then spray it across its enemies. Simply, its a psionic leech, unable to create energy, but is made to conquer and damage armies with psionic potential. Could also be armed with the ability to transfer shield energy into a shot similar to a mutalisk, except it hits one person first, and then splits to a maximum of two others by half damage. Complicated unit, but it would be interesting nonetheless, since the only unit to depend on their shields the most are the Archons. Maybe even put the battery charge ability on it. IDK, making some ideas.
Dark Templar: Disturber
A Dark Energenic unit that has the capability to create abberations of selected units, acting like hallucinations except it copies a selected unit, and make it attack others with actual damage (although possibly half, with half health). It is also able to attack enemies similar to a mix of a DT and a zeal, with a fast attack speed, but only does a few damage (5-10 per strike), but attacks at great at great pace (3 hits a second). A fast attacker, and a good ability
and last, but not least...
more Zerg Skins
with the campaign coming out, it will be no surprise that their will different skins of the 'same' unit, such as a zergling having a normal skin, a spawnling skin, a raptor skin, and so forth. For a guy that like to create maps, I want more skins for some of the things I am working on. Even some better map skins and doodads will be excellent for a good campaign.
Edited by Thanatos on 6/17/2011 9:15 PM PDT
You know what I'd like to see? Brand new units. We already pretty much have everything we need as far as unit roles go (zerg siege = brood lord (range) / Ultralisk (fortification buster)), we just need more unique ways of filling those roles.
Edited by KarMAzasz on 6/17/2011 10:51 PM PDT
I'd also like to see more casters and more caster-killers, it gets kinda boring when each race only has one anti-caster and one true offensive caster, different casters for different situations would add a little more variety. I'd also like to see a pure psionic construct for protoss, perhaps in the shape of an animal to take perhaps a flying meatshield role. Terran with the valkerie and the speed boost from the broodwar beta would be interesting and perhaps a zerg unit that can change modes from one sort of armour type to another would be interesting (one melee and one ranged), perhaps a protoss unit that can balance the shield energies of protoss? Even if only in the campaign.
Another race would be nice too,
Edited by ArchAngel on 6/18/2011 5:15 PM PDT
- Science vessel (new powers though)
- diamond back or goliath
- leviathan would be nice IF they can balance it
- not sure on another unit BUT i would love for creep to extend DOWN cliffs, etc so that maybe spine crawlers wouldn't have to walk all the way around a base to reach the ramp :P (note: i am a toss player, but i think this would make sense for zerg)
- dark archon (maybe make it get more powerful with more dark templars being used to merge into it -- not sure how to balance it)
- mothership - give back time bomb and planet cracker but make planet cracker cause shields to drop, so it exposes mothership even more - to help balance it).
Lot of ideas in this thread, so I’ll throw my two cents in.
What I want to see, more than anything else in HotS multiplayer, is the return of the lurker. Lurkers were an amazingly creative and useful unit that complimented brood war zerg perfectly, giving them some heavy staying power without undermining the feel and approach of the race.
Some people in this thread have called the lurker a siege unit, but that isn’t really accurate. Blizz toyed with giving it an upgrade that would improve its range from six to nine (allowing it to out-range stationary defenses, thus qualifying as a siege unit) in alpha, but the original never had that quality. Honestly, lurkers shouldn’t need that much range. They were always best in small groups where they’d create a cross-fire of AoE attacks that would tear apart hordes of smaller units and inflict serious damage on larger ones. Almost an anti-deathball unit, really. They’d make it impossible to move or take an area unless you invested in detectors, and even then they could cause a lot of damage if you weren’t careful in your approach.
Banelings are good additions to the zerg, but they don’t have quite the same niche. I really don’t see much conflict in unit roles here; banelings are fast, aggressive, and uniquely expensive early-tech units that shine against groups of light units. Lurkers are inherently defensive heavy units, their impressive damage potential hampered by their lack of mobility but compensated for by their staying power. If anything, lurkers and banelings would work well together, especially considering the last SCII alpha lurker incarnation had them doing extra damage against armored units, nicely offsetting the baneling’s bonus against light ones.
This link http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Lurker covers the original brood war and SCII alpha implementation of the lurker, and quite frankly I can see tons of uses for a unit like this. A couple at a chokepoint will deter mid-game rushes, at the very least buying you time to rally your other forces. Burrowing one behind a mineral line could mess up drop strategies, at the very least forcing terrans to waste time and a comsat sweep if they want to try economy raiding. They’d compliment offensive forces if microed well, and would encourage zerg to pull back towards areas with lurkers waiting, giving zerg a new way to creatively use the environment.
Personally, with so many options available, I think the only reason they were under-used in alpha was because early roaches were wildly overpowered. At the time, tier one roaches started with two armor, had constant health regeneration, and the same DPS as they currently do. Shuffling about with hydralisks bumped lurkers to tier 3 at a time when zerg matches rarely got past tier 1. If Heart of the Swarm could reintroduce lurkers at tier 2, either morphed from a roach or straight from a larva, then they’d be an amazing, engaging, and awesomely fun addition to current zerg.
For terrans, I’d like to see a valkyrie-like unit, but definitely not the brood war valkyrie. Personally, I find terrans are oddly vulnerable to mutalisk swarms. Vikings are effective against small numbers, but you reach a point where mutalisks’ bouncing glaives gives them the upper hand. Once you reach that point, terrans have three good counters against mutalisks; mass marines with stimpacks, thors, and battlecruisers. The thing I find is they all share the same weakness; they’re really slow. If you see a good anti-air block of one of these units, the sensible thing is to take your mutalisks and attack someplace else, since they can literally fly circles around all their terran counters. Then it’s a matter of harassing your enemy’s economy and growth until you can overwhelm them.
I’d love to see terrans get a flying unit (that can follow mutalisks over cliffs) with a valykerie like AoE anti-air attack, something effective against bunches of light units, ineffective against big ones like corruptors and void rays, and with an area effect that can’t be defeated with simple micro (ala the magic box technique). It would have to require a tech-lab and be fairly expensive. The problem is, zerg are the only race that can pull off anything with lots of light flyers anymore, so unless HotS introduces new light airborne attack units to the terran and protoss armies, the brood war valykerie can’t be justified. It would have to be something more; maybe like a heavier Viking that could shift to a combat-support walker and use its area of effect missles against ground targets. It’s hard to imagine what this unit would do on the ground, since aside from fast/light air defense, terrans seem to have their bases covered.
Most of what I’m hoping for the protoss would be upgrades rather than units. Phoenixes are actually really useful right now if you know how to use them. I’ve seen players more skilled than myself work wonders with them, and I’ve even been able to pull off some fun victories with the things. They are supremely effective against mutalisks, they’re serviceable raiders in groups, and strategic use of graviton beam can turn the tide of major engagements. That said, I find they have a major problem as raiders; a single anti-air tower neutralizes their ability to hit gatherers. That pretty much leaves a narrow window where you can use them to hit your enemy’s economy line before he buys air defenses. I’d love to see the old disruption web ability available for phoenixes at the fleet beacon. Since phoenixes have to expend energy to attack ground units to begin with, disruption web would always be a strategic choice; do you have enough phoenixes/energy to neutralizes the ground defenses, or would it be best just to press ahead, take some hits, and be out quickly?
Aside from disruption web, I hope protoss get a gateway unit that only requires the twilight council for a tech unlock. Ideally, it would fill the role of the old shield battery, giving the protoss shield mechanic some more depth. I like the idea of a technical protoss infantry unit or light vehicle with a pulse ability that would restore a portion of nearby shields, but it’s not terribly articulated.
Aside from that, I’d love to see a simple range upgrade for immortals. They have tons of potential, but the fact that they have less range than stalkers makes them somewhat hard to actually control in a fight.
I agree with the disruption web idea
The shield recharger unit
And the Viking nitro pack two second burst thing
But the thing I want is a range upgrade for the pheonx and the destuction of the damage
Reduced by armour
The phoenix needs micro like a good to kill mutas and stuff like that so in Order to prevent
One slip up killing all your expensive air units so extra range would be nice
And I get
At how phoenix get wrecked by corrupters without doing damage
Edited by fantasy on 7/2/2011 6:07 AM PDT
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