Morality

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I suppose this only validates what I said, in that I will not be able to convince you of my viewpoint. The only way here to show one another's error is when we die or the world ends, one or the other of us will be proved wrong, and the other right. Note that your way gets both of us to the Perfect Earth (the Bible says Heaven is only until the end times, after that the universe will be remade as it was before the fall), while mine only takes me and others who believe the Bible is flawless and the Word of God and obey all its commandments that are not later removed.
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02/24/2014 06:47 AMPosted by Maverick
I suppose this only validates what I said, in that I will not be able to convince you of my viewpoint. The only way here to show one another's error is when we die or the world ends, one or the other of us will be proved wrong, and the other right. Note that your way gets both of us to the Perfect Earth (the Bible says Heaven is only until the end times, after that the universe will be remade as it was before the fall), while mine only takes me and others who believe the Bible is flawless and the Word of God and obey all its commandments that are not later removed.


My god is more accepting than the Church's god who is very socially conservative. My god also has no hell and loves all his people. Hitler will dine in heaven as much as Jesus will, there is no discrimination in my God no matter how bad one is.

With that being said before you go on and say "well then people will just do bad things and go to heaven so wuts the point". I thought that through a while ago.

God does not punish us. We punish ourselves.

When Hitler was sitting in his bunker in severe depression and commited suicide because of his failure we caused it, we did justice.

When the Southerners fought for slavery to stay legal and laughed as the blacks did their work and suffered, when the day came and the Union stood victorious over the southern confederate states, we caused it, we did our own justice.

I can go on and on with the examples but its humans that correct themselves, God guides us in the path but in the end he gives eternity to all, noone is excluded, Satan doesn't exist.

That's my God, that's my personal tailored supernatural belief, and until the church is more accepting I will never give that belief up.

If I ever were to once again be a part of Christianity I would only join the Jesuits, noone else, in my eyes only they have seen reason within the church.

Sidenote: I'm looking through the older posts and I happened to noticed.... Hylozoist interpreted the bible literally..... For such a smart man he sure does have his foolish moments. He is also a bit too technical at times I must say.
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^So basically you're saying Satan and Hell doesn't exist supernaturally, but is rather an aspect of human life. Instead of Satan causing sin, the cause is entirely in ourselves. Instead of punishment existing in the afterlife, it is in the world.
Is this a valid restatement?
Edited by Engineer on 2/24/2014 4:36 PM PST
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02/24/2014 04:36 PMPosted by Engineer
^So basically you're saying Satan and Hell doesn't exist supernaturally, but is rather an aspect of human life. Instead of Satan causing sin, the cause is entirely in ourselves. Instead of punishment existing in the afterlife, it is in the world.
Is this a valid restatement?


Yes, and there is certainly truth to it, now I'm not trying to push my agenda here but there is truth in Christianity, truth in my way of seeing God, there is certainly truth in Atheism, etc.

All of these beliefs have truths in them, now dont confuse truth and fact, although technically they may be the same spiritually they are different words.

For example when looking at the bible lets look at Genesis, the creation stories to be precise.

I'm brainfarting on which creation story to be exact...

The man was formed from the clay of the ground and as he was formed in God's image God blew the breath of life into his nostrils.

Now if you want to take that literally man was made from clay.... We know that isn't true, humans dont come from clay, it is not fact. However, what is a truth in this story? The man was formed in God's image, and God, personally, went to the man's face and breathed into his nose the breath of life. What is the truth to this? We are close with God, He is always by our side, he has been by our side since the time of our birth, and he still is by our side.

More quotes from the same creation story.

The man knew he was naked, so he hid in the forest, a wind blew through the forest and the lord God called out to the man, "Where are you? Why have you left me?"

God is concerned with the man, where had the man gone? Why did he separate himself from God? What did God do to him (the man sinned and separated himself from God)? God gets concerned when he is not by our side, he loves us so much and is disheartened to be separated from us, his children.

That is one way of interpreting that portion of the bible, THAT is a TRUTH. The truth is god loves us and is by our side. Of course man was not made from clay, like I said before, it isn't factual, but it has truth to it.

This is why Hylozoist was a fool whether he knew it or not. He interpreted the bible literally in his older posts and I quote, "Humans weren't made from clay..."

YOU CANNOT TAKE THE BIBLE IN A LITERAL SENSE.

Here's a little thing to ask people about the bible. According to the bible which came first, humans or animals? Oh how that one little sentence will make anyone feel like a fool for taking the bible literally.

Anyways I digress, the whole point of this post was to show that all these beliefs people have are truthful. They have truth to it, some may have facts others may not, but they all have truths, it is inherent in every belief. Hell even !@#$sm has a truth to it (perfection), however little said truth may be it is still truth. Noone is ever wrong in truth, as my theology teacher always taught me, all stories are true, some actually happened. You can't look at everything in such a literal sense, this is what Hylozoist has not understood as far as I've seen from him.

*sidenote* Yeah engi that was a pretty accurate statement. There is no hell or eternal damnation like that, my God is too loving of everyone to ever create such a place. And humans already punish themselves, its inherent in history and we KNOW THAT TO BE TRUE, the Persians ousted the evil neo-babylonians and saved the Jews, Hitler was stopped and Germany suppressed, the North won the civil war, the Japanese were ousted from China in WW2 by the U.S. It's all in history, I had to do my own research before I came up with my own personal belief, I ain't speaking out of my %^- here.
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*Shrug* You can't convince me here, but in regard to your anti-interpretation of the Bible in a literal sense, I personally think that God took and rearranged the elements in the clay to create a human being, and then (He is omnipotent, after all) brought him to life.
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02/25/2014 07:01 AMPosted by Maverick
*Shrug* You can't convince me here, but in regard to your anti-interpretation of the Bible in a literal sense, I personally think that God took and rearranged the elements in the clay to create a human being, and then (He is omnipotent, after all) brought him to life.


02/24/2014 06:46 PMPosted by Luftwaffe
now I'm not trying to push my agenda here


Nor was I trying to...

02/25/2014 07:01 AMPosted by Maverick
I personally think that God took and rearranged the elements in the clay to create a human being


Alrighty then, so you will simply continue to feed those idiot christian fundamentalists by taking the bible literally. Every christian I know be they Jesuit, catholic, protestant what have you simply laugh at the idea of us being randomly formed of clay. Creationism is simply God created the universe and its beings, it doesn't ever say how in case thats why you believe in such nonsense. Hence the rise of the idea of theistic evolution in which we evolved from the common ancestor because God willed it so, but if you want to keep being the 1% of fundamentalist christians then go ahead, no one is stopping you.
Edited by Luftwaffe on 2/25/2014 2:51 PM PST
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02/25/2014 07:01 AMPosted by Maverick
He is omnipotent, after all


All the more reason for him to be able to evolve a *crappy* animal into the mastermind dominators of the Earth today.
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Why would he do that??? The Bible says that he created everything there is in 7 days, and 'fundamental Christians' make up far more than 1% of the Christian population. Furthermore, 'every Christian you know' is an appeal to majority, which is not even valid, seeing that every Christian I know is a 'fundamental Christian'. Therefore, our appeals to majority cancel each other out.

You continue to call my position 'nonsense' and myself and those on my side 'idiots', in an ad hominem attack, yet you give no evidence for this. How am I being less than rational? I have not yet seen one argument that I cannot answer according to the dictates of my view, whether or not you accept the truth of my arguments and rebuttals.

If you are dismissing part of the Bible as 'metaphorical', then how can you trust the rest of the Bible? In addition, those parts of the Bible which are metaphors and similes are obvious: they are specified as dreams, visions, or are grammar versions; 'Your forearms are like cedars of Lebanon'.

How were we 'randomly' formed out of clay? An omnipotent God does nothing 'randomly'. He had a plan for all Creation.How did God create the universe and its beings? Where does the matter from your version of creation come from? And don't say the Big Bang, because then I'll ask where the matter for the Big Bang came from. God is-let me say it again- om-ni-po-tent. He can do anything. He said let there be light- and photons came into existence, and continued to come into existence until such time as he saw fit to create a source for them: 'Then God said "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens, to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, days and years; and let them be lights in the firmament of the heavens, to give light to the earth" (emphasis mine).

'The earth was without form, and void' therefore, God brought matter into being sometime before Genesis One. There was only water, and no light '...and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God hovered over the surface of the waters.' So God was there before light, time, or anything.
.
Edited by Maverick on 2/27/2014 7:14 AM PST
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qJDd-2tM-A
I know what you're response will probably will be to this, "God can do crazy things." Well, why can't I chose anything to be because of God? Why can't I say all of the events in other religious writings are because of God? I'll tell you why. Those other things are wrong. They're not wrong because of this book you read, because YOU are the one that decided that book was right. There's nothing different between it and any other book except logical arguments that YOU make. So how about we start explaining why some crazy things make sense and others don't, please.
Note: I'm not an atheist.

Edit: I'll restate that last sentence: Support anything you believe with logic when possible, and especially in an argument.
Edited by Engineer on 2/27/2014 9:42 AM PST
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02/27/2014 07:11 AMPosted by Maverick
I have not yet seen one argument that I cannot answer according to the dictates of my view, whether or not you accept the truth of my arguments and rebuttals.


Prove to me that humans were made from clay and such, and yes the burden of proof is on you for first making that claim before you get any ideas on trying to become technical on me.

02/27/2014 09:38 AMPosted by Engineer
Note: I'm not an atheist.


That isn't too big the issue in this thread, but my issue is that Maverick is interpreting the bible literally which is flat out wrong.

Again its not meant to be taken literally otherwise which came first, humans or animals....
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02/27/2014 07:11 AMPosted by Maverick
How were we 'randomly' formed out of clay? An omnipotent God does nothing 'randomly'. He had a plan for all Creation.


That sounds like omniscient to me rather than omnipotent.

02/27/2014 07:11 AMPosted by Maverick
If you are dismissing part of the Bible as 'metaphorical', then how can you trust the rest of the Bible?


Dismissing is a nasty word, I'm not trying to discredit the bible the way it is, that is how I personally along with many others and against many others interpret the bible as a book.

You're using God as an evidential Panacea of sorts, that's what's pissing me off right now.
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02/27/2014 09:38 AMPosted by Engineer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qJDd-2tM-A
I know what you're response will probably will be to this, "God can do crazy things." Well, why can't I chose anything to be because of God? Why can't I say all of the events in other religious writings are because of God? I'll tell you why. Those other things are wrong. They're not wrong because of this book you read, because YOU are the one that decided that book was right. There's nothing different between it and any other book except logical arguments that YOU make. So how about we start explaining why some crazy things make sense and others don't, please.
Note: I'm not an atheist.

Edit: I'll restate that last sentence: Support anything you believe with logic when possible, and especially in an argument.


Suprirsingly he didn't mention the two creation stories to simply automatically prove every single Christian fundamentalist wrong.

Correct me if I'm wrong on the order here but according to the Yahwist creation story humans came before animals yet in the Elohist creation story the exact opposite happened (If I got the order on them wrong simply switch Yahwist and Elohim) and animals came before humans.

So which story is correct? Well the Bible is the literal interpretation of God's words (which personally I don't believe in, I believe it was a book created by humanity to better understand God, not God's direct word to humanity) so I guess at some point in history humans were created before animals while animals came before humans. Even though we know that is logically IMPOSSIBLE, but hey, since the Bible is to be taken literally then forget it that !@#$ fuking happened.

02/27/2014 07:11 AMPosted by Maverick
If you are dismissing part of the Bible as 'metaphorical', then how can you trust the rest of the Bible?


I interprete the entire Bible in a metaphorical fashion minus few parts here and there (although I take those with a grain of salt), and I trust many parts of the bible because as you two saw in my previous posts, every religion has truths, every myth is true, some actually happened. Reread through my previous post in the thread to understand that logic otherwise I will sound crazy right now.

THAT is why I trust many parts of the bible (minus certain parts like leviticus, I'm sure you two know which parts), they hold moral truths that I have followed ever since I had the ability to reason like an adult.

The next paragraph, the third point will mostly coincide with what Engineer was getting at.

Now the bible can be interpreted in many different ways but for example how about I bring up a certain interpretation of some verses in Genesis again. One of the most widely known quotes people have ever read from the Bible is most likely "We were created in God's image". What can this mean? We LOOK like God? It cant be, otherwise who looks the most like God because we all look different? No so it can't mean that, what else can it mean? Maybe it can mean we were created with characteristics similar to God? What characteristics do we have that God has as well? Well we know God has power, and we share that characteristic to a lesser extent because we hold the most power of any other species on Earth, we can destroy the Earth at will, we can make a species go extinct because we don't like them, etc. What else do we share with God? We can love, we care for eachother and we care for animals as well because we don't purposely make things extinct etc. God is a loving God is he not? So thats another characteristic we share with him. What else? We are logical and have the ability to reason. We share that with God, is he not omnipotent, Omniscient, and omnipresent? If he is omniscient he knows everything, he understands logic and science, and we have the ability to understand these things as well. There are many more characteristics we share with God but I'll stop at the ability to reason.

So we share the ability to reason with God because he is omniscient, he can think and reason and he KNOWS everything. We may not know everything but we can think and reason as well.

Just like Engineer said, if you believe in these things then you need to make a logical conclusion as to why these things may have happened. Don't revert to your evidential panacea either, anything like that will simply be discarded as "false evidence".

EDIT

As for that video personally Mormonism is probably the biggest abomination of a denomination of a religion I have ever seen (dem rhymes).
Edited by Luftwaffe on 2/27/2014 2:27 PM PST
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02/24/2014 02:39 PMPosted by Luftwaffe
Sidenote: I'm looking through the older posts and I happened to noticed.... Hylozoist interpreted the bible literally..... For such a smart man he sure does have his foolish moments. He is also a bit too technical at times I must say.


I have yet to see a good definition from anyone about how to identify the parts of the bible supposed to be taken literally and those which aren't. Until someone manages to come up with a satisfying one, the distinction people try to make all boils down to special pleading.

(Also; not a man, but that's a minor quibble!)
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02/28/2014 07:29 PMPosted by Hylozoist
02/24/2014 02:39 PMPosted by Luftwaffe
Sidenote: I'm looking through the older posts and I happened to noticed.... Hylozoist interpreted the bible literally..... For such a smart man he sure does have his foolish moments. He is also a bit too technical at times I must say.


I have yet to see a good definition from anyone about how to identify the parts of the bible supposed to be taken literally and those which aren't. Until someone manages to come up with a satisfying one, the distinction people try to make all boils down to special pleading.

(Also; not a man, but that's a minor quibble!)


Oh my, I am very sorry, you are a woman? Welcome to the threads (I really should have said that earlier)! Sorry if my humor comes off as crude at times, just tell me if I ever make you feel uncomfortable and I will be more than happy to tune down.

On another note: Identifying the parts of the bible to be taken literally and metaphorically is subject to the human reading it. But that being said when you see the contradiction like the one in the Genesis creation stories you have to atleast think to yourself if it should be taken literally...

^^^^ Please don't become too technical with that statement there, I'm not trying to spark a huge war over something like this.
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02/28/2014 07:33 PMPosted by Luftwaffe
On another note: Identifying the parts of the bible to be taken literally and metaphorically is subject to the human reading it. But that being said when you see the contradiction like the one in the Genesis creation stories you have to atleast think to yourself if it should be taken literally...


This is not a sufficient definition, as it becomes an excuse to just point to something as 'literal' until it's demonstrated to be false, then claim 'oh, just figurative.'

If the bible isn't "inerrant word," then nothing it says has relevance as it has been demonstrably wrong in many cases, to the point where there's no reason to assume any of it's correct. If it is, then nothing it says should be wrong.
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02/28/2014 07:35 PMPosted by Hylozoist
This is not a sufficient definition


Unfortunately with something like religion I can only give you the best one I can see. And that's how this ties to Atheism having truth to it, it has the huge focus on primarily science, logic, facts, etc. and becomes less opinionated and as many would probably say "less outrageous" than some things you would spot in religion.

Personally I have simply (learned to?) avoided religion because of what it has become today (I loved the compassion of Christ but his religion today is many things OTHER than compassionate, if only his second coming that christianity predicts came faster so that he could see what some of his followers have become).
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02/28/2014 07:42 PMPosted by Luftwaffe
I loved the compassion of Christ


This is a widely believed fallacy.

The character of jesus as he was depicted in the bible is really not a very good person for many reasons.

SOME of what's attributed to him is nice, but there's an equal amount which is bad.

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Sermon_on_the_mount

This is a good example of a rather complete deconstruction and analysis of the sermon on the mount, with a focus on the really bad parts of it.
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Hylozoist's back!
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02/28/2014 08:34 PMPosted by Engineer
Hylozoist's back!


For a bit, at least.

Between classes and a new guitar, I'm sure things will pull me away again, hah.
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02/28/2014 08:14 PMPosted by Hylozoist
02/28/2014 07:42 PMPosted by Luftwaffe
I loved the compassion of Christ


This is a widely believed fallacy.

The character of jesus as he was depicted in the bible is really not a very good person for many reasons.

SOME of what's attributed to him is nice, but there's an equal amount which is bad.

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Sermon_on_the_mount

This is a good example of a rather complete deconstruction and analysis of the sermon on the mount, with a focus on the really bad parts of it.


You said yourself the only things on the life of christ were made over 30 years after he died and things in the bible were heavily revised, could this have been what he truly said? Unfortunately with what we know now I don't know, maybe you might have something, but his sermon of the mount could have also been one of the things edited by the Romans and other editors. After all emperors in past times looked at christianity as a way to keep the empire unified and the people peaceful, not for it as being a religion in which they should follow.
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