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This problem became so obvious to me that I decided that it was not just opinion that the hosted maps need to be highlighted, but that it is a fact that it literally needs to happen. The Join Game button sometimes causes someone to create a map. This leads to hundreds of maps not being able to be played at all because the masses who want to play them have no ability to group. This problem was attempted to be fixed superficially by adding "fun or not," chat, invites, friend groups, and featured maps. The true solution is to reveal what maps are currently being hosted so that players online are able to naturally group to play 5% of the total maps at a time rather than waiting for hours in the lobby then giving up. Please refer to my video for an in depth explanation of the issue at hand. Remember, do not mistake this as a matter of opinion, the joining statistics are destroyed by this simple mistake - new, innovative and regular level popularity maps will not easily be played or developed until this is fixed.
Technical analysis and explanation:
The Join Game button sometimes causes someone to create a map.
I believe this is only if the other lobby was full at the time of you clicking the join button, or if the maps popularity is so high several lobbies need to be open at a time to keep up with the flow. Have you been able to (recently) confirm this even with unpopular small maps?
TheSkunk, you did not even consider my comment enough to think about it. I want to ask you if you are being serious and if you are even trying to respect what I am saying at all. Assuming that you don't know much about Custom maps in StarCraft, I'll explain it simply. In the original, one could host a map then people would naturally join it and the game could start - whether or not the map was ever even played before. In StarCraft 2, Blizzard made a mistake - and to this day I can't find a single employee to tell this to who doesn't just work in the "technical help" department - They don't tell ANYONE which maps are being hosted in the lobby. Only the top like 20 maps are played at a time. Did everyone in Blizzard die? Why has noone in Blizzard EVER checked up on the fact that noone plays new custom maps EVER SINCE STARCRAFT 2 CAME OUT. It makes no sense to me. It only shows COMPLETE ignorance with superficial lies to cover it up. The rating system doesn't fix the fact that everyone still needs to see what other people are trying to play. The featured system doesn't fix the fact that everyone still needs to see what other people are trying to play. The popularity sorting system doesn't fix the fact that everyone still needs to see what other people are trying to play. The chat system doesn't completely fix the fact that everyone still needs to see what other people are trying to play. The invite system doesn't completely fix the fact that everyone still needs to see what other people are trying to play. THE ONLY THING THAT WILL ALLOW PLAYERS TO PLAY THE UNPOPULAR MAPS WITH PEOPLE THEY DON'T KNOW IS BY JUST SHOWING WHO IS JOINING A GAME OF THAT MAP. OTHERWISE THEY JUST GUESS, WAIT FOR HOURS, GOT BORED, THEN QUIT. QUIT. THE BEST MAP DESIGNERS QUIT BECAUSE OF YOU BLIZZARD. BECAUSE YOU ARE TOO IGNORANT TO READ MY MESSAGES THAT I TRIED TO TELL YOU ABOUT THIS FOR ALMOST 2 YEARS!! EVER SINCE I BOUGHT THE GAME WHEN IT FIRST CAME OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you for taking the time to write a courteous and polite response to my earnest question. I'm quite grateful.
TheSkunk, you did not even consider my comment enough to think about it. I want to ask you if you are being serious and if you are even trying to respect what I am saying at all.
Apologies if my post seemed to lack respect. Its quite clear you went through a lot of hard work and effort in making this presentation about the Map System. It is something I have done before, it is something I plan on doing again - and yes, earnest feedback like this is something I respect.
I admit; I was running out of time so I opted to only read your post and not watch the full length of the professional video you created. Hopefully you can forgive me of this.
Assuming that you don't know much about Custom maps in StarCraft, I'll explain it simply. In the original, one could host a map then people would naturally join it and the game could start - whether or not the map was ever even played before. In StarCraft 2, Blizzard made a mistake - and to this day I can't find a single employee to tell this to who doesn't just work in the "technical help" department - They don't tell ANYONE which maps are being hosted in the lobby.
I understand that, thanks. Being unable to see a list of lobbies, or maps that have someone in a lobby, has often been my complaint with the system as well.
I just don't understand how this relates to the "Join Game" button sometimes creating a lobby instead of joining a current one. To my knowledge there is a deliberate distinction between the create game button and join game button, and the join game button should only create a new lobby unless under the circumstances I described: There are no current lobbies (at least ones that have room) or the map has a big enough flow of players that the system keeps several lobbies open to keep up with the traffic.
It occurred to me that I may be wrong, or I may have misunderstood what you meant by the quoted text. So I asked a question. However, you appeared to not have even considered my question, and instead went off in a side rant. Perhaps I phrased it poorly - I certainly didn't mean disrespect.
Did everyone in Blizzard die?
No, I assure you they are in good health. I talked to one just the other day.
Why has noone in Blizzard EVER checked up on the fact that noone plays new custom maps EVER SINCE STARCRAFT 2 CAME OUT.
I think maybe even you will consider that to be a small overstatement upon relfection - however, as a general rule, yes: It is very difficult to get newer maps to be played.
They have checked out this issue, though. They made some patch changes; but it clearly wasn't enough. They realize that. They are working to solve it in Heart of the Swarm. Whether you agree with their methods of addressing the issue or not, they realize the problem - they're just not sure going back to the old system is the right way to solve it.
It makes no sense to me. It only shows COMPLETE ignorance with superficial lies to cover it up.
For someone complaining about respect when I only ask a question, you throw around sentences like "COMPLETE ignorance" and "superficial lies" quite lightly. I can only repeat that they realize the system is flawed in they are working at it. Feedback on how to make the system better is greatly appreciated by the development team, but you cannot expect them to follow your advice to a T.
OTHERWISE THEY JUST GUESS, WAIT FOR HOURS, GOT BORED, THEN QUIT. QUIT. THE BEST MAP DESIGNERS QUIT BECAUSE OF YOU BLIZZARD. BECAUSE YOU ARE TOO IGNORANT TO READ MY MESSAGES THAT I TRIED TO TELL YOU ABOUT THIS FOR ALMOST 2 YEARS!! EVER SINCE I BOUGHT THE GAME WHEN IT FIRST CAME OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!
Chill out! I only asked you to clarify part of your sentence.
I think this is all just a misunderstanding, I never meant to disagree with you - I was just asking for clarification.
Thanks for writing up this feedback. Sorry if I have offended you with either of these replies. I certainly didn't mean to show disrespect.
I just wanted to know if the "Join Game" button was actually creating new lobbies when it should be joining them - because I believe that would be a bug, and one I hadn't heard of - or if I misunderstood you. I never meant to disagree with the rest of your post, nor disrespect the effort you put in to it.
How do you define 'old system'? Are you talking about not sorting anything? That's not what I said. I said to merely show who is hosting something. That's not an old system. That's a continuing fact - that people need to know who else is playing what game.
They never have once responded to my advice or apparently others from these forums from what I'm told. I have tried various ways to give them a clue that they messed up. If they don't want to take my advise then they should at least tell me why, which they haven't done. Otherwise how do I know if they even understood what I really tried to say? What if what I was saying wasn't even opinion or advise but actually was a logical error in the system? To prove to me that they actually considered what I said, they would have said something like, "Oh yeah! We forgot to do that! No wonder why it wasn't working, we were missing that component! Now they system will work they way we originally designed it, but it's not missing that part anymore!"
I never said anything about you offending me with replies. I'm pretty sure that I made it clear that I am offended with Blizzard not giving me any replies. You can reply to me if you wish, I'd rather have a true opinion than a sugarcoated statement making the black and white points look wishy washy. Yes, I have reason to say that because of your fallacy to my point that Blizzard has something that they clearly need to fix. I didn't say anything about changing a style to their system. I said they need to fix something - a digital yes or no - it's either fixed or not type thing. Like you fix it and everything functions and if you don't, many things don't function. They can keep sorting however they want, that's a style to smooth out that joining stats however they like, but until they fix the sight issue - the ability to see what maps are being lobbied - you will have blindness and thus an incompatibility of freedom in game joining.
My apologize for the insanity of forceful yelling and rage, but seeing the different colored text, I thought that you actually worked for Blizzard. I suppose that I thought that I had the chance to let someone in the company know what I am concerned about. I also wanted to stand out before you left if I were to say something that didn't sound desperate enough. It just seems at this point - remember, I've been at this for over a year - that you literally have to go that far to get someone's attention from Blizzard.
Not just a regular, "fix this list of bugs" bug. However, yes, in a way, it could be viewed as a bug. Whatever you want to call it, it merely just messes up the ability for players to know what is currently being hosted and thus allows them only to play what is 'advertised' whether that be being top on list or top on rating list or a featured map. Vision needs to be restored to joiners. Also 'Join Game' and 'Create Game' should definitely be separated as to allow for a naturally balanced ecosystem of hosts and joiners. In fact, there could be an indicator on b.net that tells you which one is currently needed more to perfect the balance. Better yet, an indicator on the maps as to how many people are in the lobby would actually improve from the original StarCraft.
Going to do a non-bashing post.
Being able to show maps with lobbies waiting is indeed the way to go. Also, I very strongly agree overall with the video.
As a mapmaker, I have a map (Warlords and Merchants) that I know that people can like a lot but with the current system, it's barely played. I know that if I made the same map in quality in WC3, it would probably be one of the maps that would be any actively played (yet "non-popular") because players would see it on the list of hosted maps.
My motivation for making maps or updating my map is always hanging on a thread. I simply cannot play my map outside of my own immediate group which I would like to.
I should not have to mass advertise my map everywhere just to play occasionally with my map with random players. The SC1 and WC3 system didn't require that and if your map was enjoyable enough, it was played ... period.
As a player, I am of one who favor different maps rather than the same maps over and over. Unfortunately, the current system is made to ridiculously favor players who prefer playing the exact same maps endlessly while simply abandoning those who like a lot of variety.
Back in SC1 and WC3, I would search the custom map list and find some "non-popular" maps that I cared and actually have fun with random players. With SC2, I open the list and knowing I can only start a game with the top 20 maps that I don't care, I close SC2 and do something else. In the few cases that I do pick a top 20 map, it's because I have no real choice like COUNTLESS of players.
EDIT : In conclusion, Blizzard desperately need to show maps with hosted lobbies over ANY other map custom improvements. The Rating system they intend to add in HotS simply won't cut it as it's just yet another band-aid.
Edited by Honejasi on 12/1/2011 5:41 PM PST
Your "formal complaint" letter will be of no use. As TheSkunk has formidably explained, Blizzard knows the issue, and they are already fixing the issue. You won't see the fix until the release of the new expansion: Heart of the Swarm.
Your "formal complaint", if it deserves any form of response, will be answered, most likely, by something like this:
"We understand your concern about the Starcraft 2 custom maps system. Different solutions are currently in the works which we cannot reveal at the current point in time. We invite you to discuss about your concerns, as long as they follow the ToA, on our forums at us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum."
And that will be the end of your complaint.
I suppose then, that I will have to achieve the next magnitude of formality. Mail in, then in person if needed. Also, massive assistance, especially from mapmakers and fans, doesn't hurt.
I know about the fix: http://us.battle.net/blizzcon/en/blog/3768746
"To help players find and play less popular games, we’ll be adding a queuing system in which lobbies that have been open the longest will be filled first out of the pool of waiting “Fun or Not” players."
It's still a band-aid fix if it won't allow freedom of joining and forces the unpopular maps to be played by random players who don't choose their game to join. Even if it doesn't do that, something still tells me the heart issue of lobby vision will still not be cured.
I'm recruiting you. It's your fault, since you just proved to me that you were clever enough to even have gained that knowledge in the first place.
BinaryChaos and Honejasi, email me asap. Tim-J.Swan@sbcglobal.net
I'm not sure about you but I have in fact seen previews of the new battle.net.
I can already tell its not going to be enough and is in fact a step in the Wrong Direction.
Blizzard certainly has more than its share of idocy.
I've made a number of maps (5 so far, with a 6th in progress), but the only reason they really get played at all is because of the LotR community (currently 30 or so players). I don't expect my maps to reach the top, for the most part, but it's getting closer to insanity how the system hasn't been fixed yet.
It's been about...... (when did Beta testing start? February before release) 21? months so far, and they've mostly just added in features that really should have been in (how could they possibly miss the importance of something like Bookmarks, anyways? Or a search bar?) from the start. It shouldn't be a difficult thing to hide empty map lobbies, or even better, have an option to switch to that view from the normal popularity view. That shouldn't take more than an hour or two (I might be wrong, but I really can't see how a change like that would take very long) to do.
Unfortunately, beyond my posts, I don't really intend to do more actions.
From my view, Blizzard is currently overfocused on the popularity mentality to the point of being completely blind and/or unwilling to change. They are doing a LOT of efforts in the wrong direction or doing it the wrong way.
I am sorry but I have a hard time believing they will change to do one of the simplest fixes possible a year later after countless complaints from various groups, websites, etc. With HotS changes, it's deadly clear.
Still, feel free to do such formal complaint. Maybe you will succeed where others failed. You do have a very nice 15 minutes video to back it up nicely.
However above all else, I think it is even more critical that you manage to catch THAT one man (or woman) somewhere that will honestly listen to you and understand then convince the internal board about it. Probably the hardest part of all considering how many probably did it before you.
EDIT : In addition, you probably need endless patience and never be bashful in your complaints at all times even if you feel you are not being listened to. Even if you have a point, people tend to throw away good points if they feel threatened, misunderstood, etc.
In other words, you probably automatically lost the second you start getting angry when explaining.
Edited by Honejasi on 12/2/2011 7:25 PM PST
Why would anyone report his post?
Really, this thread, over the countless other mindless threads, versus this guy, who has been on the most gentle crusade I've ever seen?
Anyways, I don't see why Blizzard thought a system analogous to the bots of WC3 was a good idea. My map dropped in popularity after people put up bots for my map against my consent. What were once quick fills became 10-20 minute waits, because no one bothered to arrange games anymore, amongst other factors.
what are you guys complaining about... they've said it since the start, they are working on a "market" system for the custom maps, this system should be out with heart of the swarm, they aren't going to waste anymore time trying to patch this broken system that they have now. The fix is coming with heart of the swarm, chill out until then.
And by the way we knew this system was broken since beta, we even gave them feedback about it on the forums, but they didn't listen...
The lack of sight of hosted games. All players need to see what lobbies currently have players. If they don't then the system really only works for single player games. You need to know what others are playing in order to find them quickly enough to play with them before they quit, play melee, or a top 15 map.
I need others like you to help me. If I make a video, it will be a remake: shorter and better put together. The main goal will be to ensure they understand the single point of what we want. That specifically is lobby vision. I gave it a name because things with a name can't be misunderstood. As soon as they don't know what lobby vision is, they will ask us. When we tell them, rather than looking like a different system, it will look like an item that needs to be added - because that really is what it is.
E-mail me so that I can give you the main points. I need you as a number. This is your chance to step up. Quit always complaining in these forums if you don't want the real change to occur. This is our chance and someone has to take the initiative to fix it, otherwise it may never get fixed. This single fix is worth thousands of hours of creative, imaginative custom map play. That's what our world needs, not more of this single way to play crap.
I'm just suprised that Blizzard has managed to miss that idea so completely, despite.....who knows how many people saying it over the course of about 16 months (not even including Beta). As for your petition, good luck with it. I don't really have the time to participate, unfortunately, but this would be a wonderful fix to have. I'm pretty sure it would take.....1 day maybe? for a single Blizzard employee to make this kind of change.
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