The Ghost, EMP, and Protoss

Posts: 113
Is there ever a reason for Protoss to not build Zealots, Archons, HT, Stalkers against Terran?


You don't understand what I'm saying. If you play Mech I'm not going HT Storm, and if you play Bio I'm not going to go mass Gateway.

I disagree. If the terran goes mech, the protoss would and should go immortal, because it is probably the most cost-efficient thing to do in the entire game of SCII. This means that the terran will need to supplement his army with something that will kill immortal which would either have to be marines or banshees. In either case, HT/Archon would still be very good for storm/feedback and Archon just beats Terran units in general.

Zealots and stalkers are the bread and butter of Protoss. I can't imagine a single scenario in TvP where you wouldn't have those 4 units, just because of how effective they are as a general composition.

Edit: I suppose you could try to go ghost instead of banshee or marine, but again feedback is pretty good here and archons would still be good against them. I still think zealot/stalker/HT/Archon is a good composition to most anything terran will realistically do.
Edited by MotEChappoli on 12/1/2011 10:26 AM PST
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Posts: 1,531
12/01/2011 09:27 AMPosted by Soxes
The only unit out of those 4 that counters a race (Zerg) are Archons which are put in the same boat as Ghosts.


Archons aren't even in the same league; there are all sorts of zerg compositions that roll archons. Roach heavy + just about anything springs to mind. Broodlords after a certain number. NP. Hell, I think spine crawlers might beat archons for cost (don't quote me on that).
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Posts: 172
12/01/2011 10:24 AMPosted by MotEChappoli


You don't understand what I'm saying. If you play Mech I'm not going HT Storm, and if you play Bio I'm not going to go mass Gateway.

I disagree. If the terran goes mech, the protoss would and should go immortal, because it is probably the most cost-efficient thing to do in the entire game of SCII. This means that the terran will need to supplement his army with something that will kill immortal which would either have to be marines or banshees. In either case, HT/Archon would still be very good for storm/feedback and Archon just beats Terran units in general.

Zealots and stalkers are the bread and butter of Protoss. I can't imagine a single scenario in TvP where you wouldn't have those 4 units, just because of how effective they are as a general composition.

Edit: I suppose you could try to go ghost instead of banshee or marine, but again feedback is pretty good here and archons would still be good against them. I still think zealot/stalker/HT/Archon is a good composition to most anything terran will realistically do.


Understandably though, adding Marines would be Bio (where Storm obviously is useful.) The point I was trying to make was that unit compositions require proper reactions from your opponent (otherwise you lose.) The Ghost requires reaction from an opponent, but getting Ghosts will never simply be a reaction to a Protoss composition. They excel at every point in the game against every Protoss unit.
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Posts: 302
11/30/2011 09:28 PMPosted by Soxes
Archons become significantly stronger solely dependant on the match-up.


I dont agree with you, Archons only become better when they are faced against a biological composition of unit. Ghost are strong against protoss because we are the only race that the ghost can do instant AoE damage. Dont compare the Archons witht he ghost.
Edited by Robotick on 12/2/2011 1:56 PM PST
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Posts: 172
12/02/2011 01:55 PMPosted by Robotick
Archons become significantly stronger solely dependant on the match-up.


I dont agree with you, Archons only become better when they are faced against a biological composition of unit. Ghost are strong against protoss because we are the only race that the ghost can do instant AoE damage. Dont compare the Archons witht he ghost.


I only compared Archons with Ghosts in the sense that they do their bonus damage to all Zerg units. But since it seems the consensus is more towards eliminating the Archon from this category, that only leaves the Ghost. What makes this okay?
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Posts: 857
any terran who complains about zealots obviously doesn't make ghosts; you emp them and you dont need to kite.. thats all im saying
Edited by erazeR on 12/3/2011 8:35 PM PST
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Posts: 183
11/30/2011 10:39 AMPosted by LoWTension
Archons counter zerg.


BL/infestor and roaches can beat them
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Posts: 2
I believe the OP meant that EVERY unit should have a counter, including T3 units. The problem with the ghost is it can counter all its would-be counters via EMP (plus cloak AND range).

Also, there's never a bad time to build a ghost (because it's ALWAYS useful), whereas, Collosi pretty much require that you own the air first, and then it can only attack ground units (not ALWAYS useful).

So a Terran could BLINDLY go ghosts, and still be rewarded for NOT scouting.
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Posts: 2,125

Is there ever a reason for Terran to not build Ghosts against Protoss?


Yes.

1) Early game they are too expensive for the damage they deal. You lose too much army to field 1-2 Ghosts early game.

2) Mid game if the Protoss goes Colossi and you get Ghosts, you lose.

3) Late game if the Protoss is pure Chargelot/Colossi, or some combination like that where you have no heavy shield/energy units.
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Posts: 647
Are there any other units in the game who's abilities affect a race as a whole and not just serve as a "counter" to a specific unit/set of units?

Archons counter zerg.


^ beat me to it

edit: also, to the people saying that archons don't counter zerg in the same way that ghosts counter protoss, the original question was:

"Are there any other units in the game who's abilities affect a race as a whole and not just serve as a "counter" to a specific unit/set of units?".

Archons fill both of these descriptions. Archons counter biological units. All zerg are biological units. Therefore archons counter zerg.
Edited by Illmaticus on 12/3/2011 11:32 PM PST
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Posts: 121

Is there ever a reason for Terran to not build Ghosts against Protoss?


Yes.

1) Early game they are too expensive for the damage they deal. You lose too much army to field 1-2 Ghosts early game.

2) Mid game if the Protoss goes Colossi and you get Ghosts, you lose.

3) Late game if the Protoss is pure Chargelot/Colossi, or some combination like that where you have no heavy shield/energy units.

If you used emp on a group of chargelots the chargelots then would be demollished by the AOE damage of seige tanks and the dps of marines.
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Posts: 49
its not a question of getting the ghosts in tvp its a question of when. Ghosts suprisingly are very expensive so t has a choice when on two base to grab them or a starport, this usually boils down to what the protoss player is building, if you scout colossus you need a port. But if they go something like ht+charglot with a few archons you have to build ghosts. Just because they are flat out necessary to fight a protoss late game does not mean t does not make choices when getting them.
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Posts: 460
We all know that the Ghost is strong against Protoss because of EMP. I am not complaining about Ghosts, nor am I saying they should be buffed/nerfed/changed in any fashion. I am merely asking an honest question as it relates to game balance as a whole.

Why does Ghost EMP remove Protoss shield AND energy?

Are there any other units in the game who's abilities affect a race as a whole and not just serve as a "counter" to a specific unit/set of units?

I mean, I can think of situations in PvT where there are certain units I just don't build as a result of my opponent's build i.e. if I see mass marine, I am not going to build mass immortal. Aside from the having to allocate resources to build Ghosts (just like every other tech path,) it seems like there's never a PvT where the Terran would suffer from throwing in a few Ghosts into his composition.

Is there ever a reason for Terran to not build Ghosts against Protoss?


Doesn't the same thing apply to the Zerg too? The Ghost's Snipe ability can affect all Zerg units since none of them are mechanical.

Maybe the way Ghosts are balanced is by having their skills overspecialized: EMP is universally effective against Protoss but situational against Zerg, Snipe is universally effective against Zerg but situational against Protoss.

Could it be that Nukes are meant to be more effective against the stationary defense loving Terran?

Maybe the Ghost were designed with the idea of having each skill better suited for fighting against each different race?

I dunno, just a thought.
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Posts: 665
Ghosts are supply-efficient, they are not cost-efficient. This is why you don't see them much until the late game. With 200 energy you can do 375 damage with snipe, that's not exactly impressive for a 200/100 caster unit. Same goes for EMP, if you EMP zealots you'll be lucky to do half that much damage, and EMPing stalkers is often wasted as the shields have already started recharging once you've gotten rid of their zealots.

The imbalance problem with Terran comes from the fact that all their disadvantages (split upgrade path/buildings, main production structure costs gas, slower worker production, workers must be pulled to build stuff) disappear or become irrelevant when you hit the late game while their advantages remain. Late game MULEs give the Terran supply-free mining and obsolete the other races' macro mechanics. MULEs are how Terran can actually make MMMVG work, they both provide the resources to make the ghosts and free up the supply so you can still have a high DPS army despite having a bunch of low/no DPS vikings, ghosts, and medivacs eating up your supply count.
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Posts: 2,125


Yes.

1) Early game they are too expensive for the damage they deal. You lose too much army to field 1-2 Ghosts early game.

2) Mid game if the Protoss goes Colossi and you get Ghosts, you lose.

3) Late game if the Protoss is pure Chargelot/Colossi, or some combination like that where you have no heavy shield/energy units.

If you used emp on a group of chargelots the chargelots then would be demollished by the AOE damage of seige tanks and the dps of marines.


As you have never played Terran in a high league, let me explain what happens if you have Ghosts and Tanks vs Chargelots.

First, you have heavy gas units vs a mineral only unit. This means he will have Colossi behind his Chargelots.

Second, a Ghost's EMP will do 50 dmg to a Chargelot. Assuming you hit every single Chargelot, each one will still have 100 hp.

Third, when the Chargelots instantly hit your front lines with Charge, your Siege Tanks will be doing 35% (35/100) dmg to their Chargelots and 78% (35/45) dmg to your Marines (assuming you stimmed). Your Tanks will kill your Marines faster than his Chargelots.

Once your Marines are dead, 3 Chargelots could probably kill 5 siege tanks because of splash damage and how tanky zealots are.
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Posts: 913
I actually don't agree that ghosts are good in all areas of TvP. Ghosts are a very expensive unit that require a lot of research to be truly effective. Late game ghosts are essential but early and mid game rarely do ghosts make a huge difference unless your opponent is massing immortals or something.

I like the ghost and I agree it's abilities are always effective at any point of the game but it's combat effectiveness is not powerful enough early and possibly mid game depending on unit compositions.
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Posts: 857

Is there ever a reason for Terran to not build Ghosts against Protoss?



3) Late game if the Protoss is pure Chargelot/Colossi, or some combination like that where you have no heavy shield/energy units.


number 3 is just - make vikings snipe collosi eZ still have 3 ghosts anyway to emp the zealots
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Posts: 45
11/30/2011 10:39 AMPosted by iAmNastea
Are there any other units in the game who's abilities affect a race as a whole and not just serve as a "counter" to a specific unit/set of units?

Archons counter zerg.

Broodlords, Infestors (for now) counter archon.
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