StarCraft® II

Roach/Hydra/(Corruptor?) vs Toss in HoTS?

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Posts: 634
With the speed upgrade, do you think this comp will be viable?
Edited by helloguy on 12/13/2011 4:55 PM PST
Posts: 195
Roach/Hydra/Corruptor is viable with good micro (focus fire with corruptors while making sure your ground army lives until the colossi die). But most Zergs (that I know of) are doing some muta/ling variant since it gives considerably more map control.
Posts: 26
i think so especially against gateway units
Posts: 1,503
mmhmm I tried roach/hydra corruptor earlier today. (As I attempt to learn the zerg race)

It's interesting...
Posts: 195
The thing is, hydras do great against gateway units, but MELT to colossi/storm. This requires you to have the corruptors to focus fire the colossi, but once you kill the colossi, your corruptors are just a waste of supply. That's why most people do a muta/ling style, since you can focus down the colossi down almost just as well with mutas, while getting a surround with lings which do great damage against stalkers and colossi (with a surround).
Posts: 3,915
I dunno, Hydra speed in HotS is Hive tech. By then you may as well get Broodlords.
And I don't think Hydra speed will be very useful against Colossi (will help in dodging storms though).
Posts: 788
not until they stop being strictly worse than marines
Posts: 2,261
No. The speed upgrade is useless, i don't know why blizz even added it. It's a hivetech upgraded. It's not like peopel are going to 'rush' hive just to get the speed upgrade. The amount of money and time it takes, will kill you. Getting the hive and the upgrade alone will take at least 3 minutes, it's time better spent on broodlords or ultras or infestors or just more t2 mass units.

You can't afford hive on anything less than 4 bases, so why in the world would you be making hydras with that kind of income when you could make broodlords or something else. It's just completely not worth it. I don't know why blizz proposed that, im sure with beta they'll see how stupid it is.

it's like giving... i dont know, zealots, an upgrade at the fleet beacon for protoss - when they are on 3+ bases, they won't be using zealots, theyll be on colossi/vr/mothership/archon. although not the best example since zealots are good in pvt i suppose, but get my point? It's why adrenal glands is bad in sc2 - it doesnt do as much damage as BW, and splash and such is so much m ore deadlier.

No one makes lings in extremely late game for zerg - your busy massing ultras or infestors or whatever instead, so it's kind of useless when a single storm or mass tanks rocks the lings.

Roach/hydra/corruptor is not a good composition. Some pros make it work because it's an extremely aggressive playstyle, and they are playing on the metagame of zerg taking a super fast third and fourth against protoss. Eventually it'll go away - again - and even now no one really uses it. Right now it's all about either mutas or baneling rain.
Posts: 195
No. The speed upgrade is useless, i don't know why blizz even added it. It's a hivetech upgraded. It's not like peopel are going to 'rush' hive just to get the speed upgrade. The amount of money and time it takes, will kill you. Getting the hive and the upgrade alone will take at least 3 minutes, it's time better spent on broodlords or ultras or infestors or just more t2 mass units.

You can't afford hive on anything less than 4 bases, so why in the world would you be making hydras with that kind of income when you could make broodlords or something else. It's just completely not worth it. I don't know why blizz proposed that, im sure with beta they'll see how stupid it is.

it's like giving... i dont know, zealots, an upgrade at the fleet beacon for protoss - when they are on 3+ bases, they won't be using zealots, theyll be on colossi/vr/mothership/archon. although not the best example since zealots are good in pvt i suppose, but get my point? It's why adrenal glands is bad in sc2 - it doesnt do as much damage as BW, and splash and such is so much m ore deadlier.

No one makes lings in extremely late game for zerg - your busy massing ultras or infestors or whatever instead, so it's kind of useless when a single storm or mass tanks rocks the lings.

Roach/hydra/corruptor is not a good composition. Some pros make it work because it's an extremely aggressive playstyle, and they are playing on the metagame of zerg taking a super fast third and fourth against protoss. Eventually it'll go away - again - and even now no one really uses it. Right now it's all about either mutas or baneling rain.

I agree that having a hive upgrade for hydra's is stupid, but I have to disagree with your ling metaphor. There's a guide on teamliquid (I forget where) where he doesn't get banelings and keeps a low muta count so you can rush hive tech on 3 bases and have mass 3/3 cracklings extremely early. With good engagements and some ling drops, you can totally catch someone off guard, especially if they don't have top notch micro.
Posts: 2,261
That's a little different. Rushing hydralisk speed isn't exactly scary, but zerglings in ZvT are extremely scary before there's a critical mass of siege tanks. It's possible to get 3/3 before a critical mass of tanks in zvt - it's not possible to rush hydra speed before 2 colossi are out.
Posts: 3,501
Blinding cloud, if it remains more or less as is, could really make roach/hydra/infestor/viper viable.
Posts: 2,261
^You can't really mass vipers, you'll just have 2-3 vipers to cast it maybe 2-3 times (it's kind of energy intensive).

It's not really going to make 'new' compositions useful, or roach/hydra better. It's going to be a good support caster for everything - kind of like sentries are useful for everything with protoss. It's not like sentries make certain comps possible for P, it's just a good unit for every comp.

Sure, roach/hydra will be better with it, but so will everything else. Mutas and baneling rain are the way go to, and will still be the way to go.

Your comment is just kind of goofy.
Posts: 3,501
12/14/2011 12:47 PMPosted by Belial
Sure, roach/hydra will be better with it, but so will everything else.

You really don't think dropping 3 blinding clouds when attacking a deathball or the front of a base.. somewhere the opponent *has* to defend won't be a much better bonus for ranged units than say zerglings?
If you fungal, blinding cloud, then run in with zerglings, each zergling will still be attackable, and FF can nullify the attack. Blinding cloud is better with range units, especially high-dps range units because they can attack en masse without taking much damage in return. It won't make collosi useless, but it probably makes a deathball with a tempest in it much more approachable than by mutas, overlord drops, or corruptors.


12/14/2011 12:47 PMPosted by Belial
Sure, roach/hydra will be better with it, but so will everything else. Mutas and baneling rain are the way go to, and will still be the way to go.

I'm guessing muta/ling/bling vs battle hellion/warhound/tank won't even be viable. Muta/ling may still be good vs. toss becuase the tempest is pretty slow and late in the tech tree.

12/14/2011 12:47 PMPosted by Belial
Your comment is just kind of goofy.

Maybe, but I'm not convinced you've thought this through properly yet. When you have, let me know.
Edited by BlackAdder on 12/14/2011 1:20 PM PST
Posts: 362
Why not do lings and hydra with mutas instead of corruptors? It might be a little heavy on the minerals side but be sure to expand...
Good or not?
Edited by Ryxter on 12/14/2011 1:12 PM PST
Posts: 3,915
Why not do lings and hydra with mutas instead of corruptors? It might be a little heavy on the minerals side but be sure to expand...
Good or not?

You need Roaches in there, lings and Hydra are both very fragile and die super fast to any form of splash. Throw in Mutas and your whole composition may as well be made of paper.

There are two reasons you get Corruptors when going Roach/Hydra -
1) They're tanky enough to fly over the Stalker ball and take out Colossi if you have enough of them. Muta are too fragile and low-ranged to be good at this role (even if they can shoot downwards too)
2) They can be recycled later into Broodlords, while Muta can't.

That's not to say Muta are bad (the opposite is true, even), it's just that you should focus only on them when you make them.
Posts: 2,261
You really don't think dropping 3 blinding clouds when attacking a deathball or the front of a base.. somewhere the opponent *has* to defend won't be a much better bonus for ranged units than say zerglings?
If you fungal, blinding cloud, then run in with zerglings, each zergling will still be attackable, and FF can nullify the attack. Blinding cloud is better with range units, especially high-dps range units because they can attack en masse without taking much damage in return. It won't make collosi useless, but it probably makes a deathball with a tempest in it much more approachable than by mutas, overlord drops, or corruptors.


Theoretically, fungal + hydralisk is unstoppable because you just outrange everything. Blinding cloud also means that lings will only be attacked by melee range units instead of close up and far away units, which will help them a lot. The opponent can always move up to the hydras, or run away, but can't exactly run away from lings.

I'm guessing muta/ling/bling vs battle hellion/warhound/tank won't even be viable. Muta/ling may still be good vs. toss becuase the tempest is pretty slow and late in the tech tree.


This is a thread about toss... battle hellions won't be good against lings (definitely not better than siege tanks) and warhounds are going to be worse than thors, for the most part (they were created to 'smooth' the power curve, think of them as just 1/2 the cost/time of thors, so terran isn't so vulnerable for as long, but then isnt so strong so suddenly).

I don't even know what to say about the tempest. The tempest shouldn't really be affordable on 2 base, and mutalisks are only good against 2 base protoss, really.

I don't like the idea of the tempest. Right now it's about protoss fighting to take a third, and then get a deathball, while zerg isi completely unable to transition out of mutas (too gas costly, upgrades, doesnt synergize well with anything else against protoss) so they are either forced to make the dangerous transition, or to just make more mutas and force a base trade, that they'll have a hard time with when it's 3 base protoss.

Maybe, but I'm not convinced you've thought this through properly yet. When you have, let me know.


The difference being I actually went to blizzcon, I'm masters, and your a low diamond who hasn't actually played HOTS.

Viper just made everything slightly better - you know, whole support caster thing. You can also play a custom someone made where they basically made HOTS.
Posts: 195
12/14/2011 09:21 AMPosted by Belial
That's a little different. Rushing hydralisk speed isn't exactly scary, but zerglings in ZvT are extremely scary before there's a critical mass of siege tanks. It's possible to get 3/3 before a critical mass of tanks in zvt - it's not possible to rush hydra speed before 2 colossi are out.

Yeah I agree. Just had to say something because it bugs me when people say lings are useless after 10 minutes in when I win every other game with them haha.
Posts: 937
mmhmm I tried roach/hydra corruptor earlier today. (As I attempt to learn the zerg race)

It's interesting...

Learning roach / hydra / corruptor is fun. To do it optimally, you should rush +2 range ups (I do armor too). Your army should also include 2 to 4 Oseers, a lot of OLs and a queen or two. It's generally a 2 base all in / contain. You should hit ~170 supply before taking the 3rd, usually, and be about 30 supply ahead of protoss, with your corruptors just finishing (over make corruptors). You basically want as few hydras as possible to force colossus (about ~8 typically, ~15 if he is massing blink stalkers).

Once you have ~10 roaches and a queen, move Oseers / OLs / Queen / Roaches in a safe way to start tumors. As you build up an army move around the map, waiting for OLs and tumoring critical locations (such as Toss 3rds or 4ths). Once you have the army comp together, you can really just A- move IMO. The trick is that corruptors will snipe observers immediately, allowing roaches to burrow under colossus / stalkers. OLs prevent colossus targeting of hydras (instead it will focus roaches). OLs / Queen spread the creep pretty quick, meaning hydras can kite to some degree and burrowed roaches move pretty fast (and no observer to kill tumors). Blink stalkers require significantly more micro, since if the are blinked too far back and A-moved, they will target OLs. Reinforcements should usually be pure roach (with some lings as mins are available).

If you are ~180 supply and haven't finished them off, the late game transition is 3/3, adding in infested terrans, drop tech, and possibly broods if you can grab a 5th.

The strat is good in below masters, IMO, because it is a bit abusive, meaning that the micro required by the protoss is significantly higher than that of the zerg. The main counter is early storms (instead of colossus) which can partially be neutralized by sniping observers with corruptors and using burrowed roaches with a good concave, and quick drop tech rather than infestors (it's unlikely he has a lot of temps + storm + observers + a lot of blink stalkers by the time you hit ~180).
Edited by kybarnet on 12/14/2011 10:25 PM PST
Posts: 2,261
^ That's really horrible advice dude...

Why would you have 2-4 overseers? You should never have any overseers in your army, until DT's start to be an issue or P has 3+ bases... I mean lategame always useful to have one, but not 2-4...

Having a bunch of overlords not the best idea either. They won't tank damage, as the enemy will fire on 'hostile' units before non-hostile units. For the same reason, you wont attack mining workers if hostile units are nearby.

It's better to go fast third as opposed to doing a 2 base all-in. ROach/Hydra/Corruptor on 2 base will never beat a 2 base protoss. Even 3 base r/h/c barely beats 2 base protoss armies.

10 queens, .... burrow move roaches... dude, everything you say is just completely wrong. Completely, completely wrong.
Posts: 3,501
12/14/2011 08:14 PMPosted by Belial
Theoretically, fungal + hydralisk is unstoppable because you just outrange everything.

The only things that hydras are really afraid of actually outrange them, so theory and practice don't differ here. Hydras are typically bad because those things will *always* show up.


12/14/2011 08:14 PMPosted by Belial
This is a thread about toss... battle hellions won't be good against lings (definitely not better than siege tanks) and warhounds are going to be worse than thors, for the most part (they were created to 'smooth' the power curve, think of them as just 1/2 the cost/time of thors, so terran isn't so vulnerable for as long, but then isnt so strong so suddenly).

Interesting: hellions are already pretty good against lings. Why aren't battle hellions better?


12/14/2011 08:14 PMPosted by Belial
I don't like the idea of the tempest.

I agree: I don't think it makes the game better or more interesting. Toss should be rightfully upset about losing a carrier for it.



The difference being I actually went to blizzcon, I'm masters, and your a low diamond who hasn't actually played HOTS.

Viper just made everything slightly better - you know, whole support caster thing. You can also play a custom someone made where they basically made HOTS.

Yes, you're better than I am, and not being able to multitask quickly and reliably means I don't get to experience important aspects of the game. But I have some brain cells too :)
I have played the custom map, but only putzing around against the AI, which is horrible. It's hard to really get a feel for the unit combos I'm concerned about without a friend to participate.
I agree that support casters tend to "just make things better". But I really do think that certain support spells are better with some unit combos.
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