StarCraft® II

Most useless campaign unit?

Posts: 181
More economical?...but you gotta spend money to repair. You only have to buy the Science Vessel once and it heals with energy.
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Posts: 314
The entire point of SV's for the point I was making in Haven was to reduce downtime. I could attack a base while at the same time not worry about my healers dying, since they can heal each other, while also healing a unit that's under attack. My base was also dead, so I couldn't make anymore. And Safe Haven is harder than Haven's Fall and All In, if you're comparing the difficulty of the achievements on Brutal. All you need are marines, medics, tanks, flame turrets, and psi disruptors (and vikings if you're against air) for All In, and it should be cake.


Yes, you can reduce downtime which can be done for cheaper/faster using biosteel.

All you need is mass viking for Safe Haven with biosteel, while you need marines/medics/tanks/flameturrets/psi disruptors for All in...

You just proved my point that All In is comparatively harder than Safe Haven. Massing single unit type is easier than building 5 ~ 6 different unit type.
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Posts: 314
More economical?...but you gotta spend money to repair. You only have to buy the Science Vessel once and it heals with energy.


Biosteel kicks in the moment mission starts without spending a single mineral/gas on anything extra.

And SV costs what, 100 mineral and 200 gas? You can get a lot of healing done with that.
Edited by Gaizokubanou on 8/7/2010 1:12 AM PDT
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Posts: 181
Right I was saying as opposed to SCV's. Bio-steel is much much slower though. A SV can heal a BC back to full health pretty quickly, where biosteel is more like zerg regeneration.
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Posts: 467

Yes, you can reduce downtime which can be done for cheaper/faster using biosteel.

All you need is mass viking for Safe Haven with biosteel, while you need marines/medics/tanks/flameturrets/psi disruptors for All in...

You just proved my point that All In is comparatively harder than Safe Haven. Massing single unit type is easier than building 5 ~ 6 different unit type.


Biosteel heals more slowly than a Science Vessel that can heal. I personally find it a waste when I can send my units instantly into battle more effectively with energy rather than the slow, regenerative mechanical units. And I also mentioned if you were doing a speedrun on Safe Haven on Brutal. It's comparatively harder than all in, since you're rushing to kill all the nexuses while at the same time trying to defend your base against attacks and defending villages from terror squads. It requires more attention than All In, where all you have to do is pay attention to your fort, rather than the entire map.
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Posts: 314
The entire base defense in Safe Haven can be done with the starting 4 marines/2medics + war pig squad.

And you can defend villages using the same vikings that you use to kill nexus. By the time you finish off the second base is when they attack the first village anyway, which is on the way to the third nexus.

Really, how many posts do you see about asking for help on Brutal All In compared to Brutal Safe Haven? Are you really saying that a mission where you have to maintain fully tiered base defense using 5+ variety of units is easier than a mission where your entire base defense is done by just ordering a squad of warpigs and an offense which is so pre-set (take out warp prism, which are sitting ducks, then nexuses become sitting duck) that it can be taken by single type of unit?


Right I was saying as opposed to SCV's. Bio-steel is much much slower though. A SV can heal a BC back to full health pretty quickly, where biosteel is more like zerg regeneration.


That zerg regeneration is all you need if you just move damaged unit to the back a little so that AI would fire on healthier units. With biosteel I'm basically getting my stuff fixed long before a SV would ever show. Only time where biosteel doesn't cut it is on BCs on maw of the void, but it's not like you take SV into the rip field anyway so if you are going to pull out the BCs to repair, it's just as easy to finish repairing using SCVs (and that map has so little resources that chances are, you will have extra SCVs laying around soon enough).
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Posts: 314
I just did Safe Haven in 11:38 without SV... so I don't see how SV contributes to "speed run" at all.

If anything, the build cost/time of SV interferes with speed runs.
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Posts: 467
I believe this entire argument is about how unneeded something is rather than how much help it can provide. From all I'm seeing, you're talking about how you can do this and that without using this or that, instead of how much this can benefit this if used.

As for what mission is harder, I still stand by my statement. A lot of things in All In (building the tanks, turrets, psi disruptors, and marines and medics) can take place within the first few minutes of the game. If you do this correctly, all you would need is for your SCV's to patrol areas to repair buildings, and still mass marines and medics to a designated point to camp. In Safe Haven, I have to go on the offensive to acquire resources, pay attention to both my base and my attack force, and attack bases as fast as I can to make sure the Mothership doesn't go as far as I want it to.
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Posts: 190
Hmm, I think every unit has their uses now and again. I personally never hired a Firebat once, though they had their uses when they were given to you for free.

I hired a few Wraiths on Engine of Destruction, they helped a bit on that mission.

I considered getting the upgrade that allows Vultures to replenish mines, it seemed like it could be useful here and there, but never really bothered to do it.

The only time I ever used a Banshee was on Supernova, I always respected the damage they did, but never really cared to make any.

I tried training Ghosts once, then I realized how completely worthless it is trying to use nukes on AI I and never bothered again. What's the point of a cloaked unit if the enemy knows exactly where to bring a detector to take it out?

Marauders had their use on Smash and Grab, but never really used other than that.

I never trained a single Medivac. I always mixed in a good number of Medics with my Marines, and I personally LOVE the Hercules for a transport. I found a use for it on more than one mission when I just needed to destroy a single objective. Just load up a small army's worth into a couple of them and you really don't have to worry about them getting taken out before they reach their objective. Sure, you had to make a Fusion Core, and their cost was a little steep, but I still loved them overall.

I honestly never tried the Raven. I'm an avid fan of the Science Vessel. I personally never had a problem with them running out of energy, and if I needed a little extra healing I'd bring along a few SCVs. Combine the two and you can have a full armada back up and ready in no time. Science Vessel's are really nice to tag behind a group of Battlecruisers or such as well since you don't have to worry about unloading/loading them into transports, or just not being able to travel to a specific location. As for Kerrigan, once I learned that she was ridiculously easy to take out with a group of M&M's, she never gave me a problem afterwords. If you're worried about her taking out your more costly units, just move them back for a few seconds and them re-deploy them once she's gone. I never lost my defense line after I started doing this.

Anyways, like I said, each unit has it's uses. If I had known the Raven's defense drone was pretty decent, I might have tried it out instead, but I never had any qualms with Science Vessels. Let's hope this thread doesn't become a purely All In - Raven vs Science Vessel thread though.
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Posts: 467

Anyways, like I said, each unit has it's uses. If I had known the Raven's defense drone was pretty decent, I might have tried it out instead, but I never had any qualms with Science Vessels. Let's hope this thread doesn't become a purely All In - Raven vs Science Vessel thread though.


This man is a Ghost.
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Posts: 190
This man is a Ghost.


Today's forecast is...extra bomby, with a slight chance of mushroom clouds...
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Posts: 314
I believe this entire argument is about how unneeded something is rather than how much help it can provide. From all I'm seeing, you're talking about how you can do this and that without using this or that, instead of how much this can benefit this if used.

As for what mission is harder, I still stand by my statement. A lot of things in All In (building the tanks, turrets, psi disruptors, and marines and medics) can take place within the first few minutes of the game. If you do this correctly, all you would need is for your SCV's to patrol areas to repair buildings, and still mass marines and medics to a designated point to camp. In Safe Haven, I have to go on the offensive to acquire resources, pay attention to both my base and my attack force, and attack bases as fast as I can to make sure the Mothership doesn't go as far as I want it to.


SV is not only uneeded, it hinders any plan for speed run because it's a T3 in cost. I don't know your exact completion time but you said under 13 minute on brutal with SV, well I got it on 11:38 without SV, that's even playing sloppy and forgetting to get a second refinery with 800 mineral floating.

And I don't know what the hell you are doing in Safe Haven. Really. All you need to do is click that War Pig squad button from merc center, group them up with your initial starting medics, and your base defense is DONE. You keep talking about how complicated that mission is with base management and offensive...

Only base management is building supply depot and adding one merc squad to complete the defense and entire offense is done with spamming viking.

SV's job of being a mech medic is done better by many other means. It serves no unique purpose, and costs a lot. Raven also costs a lot and is limited in usage, but at least it is unique (absolute damage mitigation against certain types of attacks) in function.
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Posts: 181
Your scv's can only follow air units while they are over land. No matter how slow the SV's are they still fly. Thats another thing to consider. For that mission with the BC's I just flew around everything with my BC's and SV's.

By the way I'm not arguing one is better than the other I am merely arguing that SV's have uses as was the point of the thread.
Edited by RawNerve on 8/7/2010 2:33 AM PDT
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Posts: 181
I believe this entire argument is about how unneeded something is rather than how much help it can provide. From all I'm seeing, you're talking about how you can do this and that without using this or that, instead of how much this can benefit this if used.

As for what mission is harder, I still stand by my statement. A lot of things in All In (building the tanks, turrets, psi disruptors, and marines and medics) can take place within the first few minutes of the game. If you do this correctly, all you would need is for your SCV's to patrol areas to repair buildings, and still mass marines and medics to a designated point to camp. In Safe Haven, I have to go on the offensive to acquire resources, pay attention to both my base and my attack force, and attack bases as fast as I can to make sure the Mothership doesn't go as far as I want it to.


SV is not only uneeded, it hinders any plan for speed run because it's a T3 in cost. I don't know your exact completion time but you said under 13 minute on brutal with SV, well I got it on 11:38 without SV, that's even playing sloppy and forgetting to get a second refinery with 800 mineral floating.

And I don't know what the hell you are doing in Safe Haven. Really. All you need to do is click that War Pig squad button from merc center, group them up with your initial starting medics, and your base defense is DONE. You keep talking about how complicated that mission is with base management and offensive...

Only base management is building supply depot and adding one merc squad to complete the defense and entire offense is done with spamming viking.

SV's job of being a mech medic is done better by many other means. It serves no unique purpose, and costs a lot. Raven also costs a lot and is limited in usage, but at least it is unique (absolute damage mitigation against certain types of attacks) in function.


The problem with that is in almost every mission later in the game you already have a starport from the beginning. All you gotta do is slap on a tech reactor and you can have 2 SV's out in no time. Still probably not good for a sped run, but not really 'late game'.
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Posts: 353
5) Planetary Fortress
-> If the AI has gotten to your command center, it's already over. Might be good for expansions, but most missions you won't have time or resources for it.


I must strongly disagree with this. 3 planetary fortresses at each choke made All In on hard ridiculously easy. It's like a super bunker that doesn't need to be garrisoned.
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Posts: 742
I tend to agree just a little bit. I don't even use Vikings for that matter.
Cloaking seems to be pretty meaningless except when you defend. Even then you tend to get detected shortly.
The only case where cloak means anything is when I use Specter or Ghost and nuke everything.
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