Topic
Snipe damage
|
From the 1.4.3 Report:
Snipe damage changed from 45 to 25 +25 Psionic The point of the change is to counter Broodlords and Ultralisk. These two units share the tag Massive. So how about the snipe does -20 damage to Massive units. The snipe change will remove the effectiveness of snipe to being only used against HTs and infestors. Even here the more effective play is to just emp them and shoot them as they are defenseless without energy. This also removes the effectiveness against smaller units like marines/marauder, zealots, lings, hydras in small numbers allowing the ghost to tip the battle. |
|
Edited by DarkLegend on 2/10/12 4:11 PM (PST)
So what is a ghosts snipe good against now, Templar/Archons/Infestor and... oh wait nothing else noteworthy at all.
In otherwords why worry about sniping anything zerg at all? 2 shots for a baneling? 5 for a muta? this doesn't just address the effectiveness of ghosts against hive tech, it adresses their effectiveness against everything important but those 3 units. There must be a better way to address the hive tech vulnerability issue than this. mabey just drop it to 35 +15 psionic? 30 +20? idk it just seems the ghost is being hit much harder than it needs to in TvZ at 45:
Broods 6(5) mutas 3(2.7) banes 1(1) if you were to make it 35 +15:
Broods 7(6.4) mutas 4(3.6) banes 1(1) if you were to make it 30 +20:
Broods 8(7.5) mutas 5(4.2) banes 1(1) if you were to make it 25 +25:
Broods 10(9) mutas 6(5) banes 2(1.4) I am not going to claim that 25 +25 will be too much, or that 35 +15 will be enough, but who really know either one is a significant nerf for snipe and would need thorough testing. I just thought that in principle Blizzard said they would try to adjust things slowly instead of overcompensate and switch the balance the other way. personallyin i do hate the idea of not being able to 1 snipe banes but mabey its not really that big of a deal. just to note i play protoss, so i am not terran QQ, just trying to provide some other options out there to think about Edit: and the -20 to massive seems to make perfect sense, a much better idea for zerg, but then you must consider the archon, the ghost would then be nerfed vs an archon. Protoss does not need help in TvP right now, the are winning slighly more games than they are losing. How much of an effect that would actually have on the matchup is open for debate of course |
|
Was snipe abuse really that awful? I mean in the majority of the high level replays I've seen casted by HD & Husky, it's not really an issue unless the Zerg player is caught out of position or unprepared.
I mean god forbid an anti-tank rifle should be able to do it's job >_> |
|
Edited by DarkLegend on 2/10/12 10:41 PM (PST)
Edit: and the -20 to massive seems to make perfect sense, a much better idea for zerg, but then you must consider the archon, the ghost would then be nerfed vs an archon.An archon is all shield, just emp them. They have like 10 actual HP. oh you're right i never realized that archons were not biological, I guess when casters refer to good snipes on a zealot archon army comp they meant on the zealots. I guess this point is moot, which would make -20 to massive make total sense. And i always though the same as you with about the emp, but because i though the pros sniped archons on occasion i never really questioned it that much. I think the main issue with it has nothing to do with balance, and more to do with how unit damage values are designed in sc2. In general units do bonus damage to specific types, there is not a unit in the game that does less damage to a specific unit type. Although from a balance perspective this not an issue at all, from a game design perspective it makes all the difference; consistency in design from unit to unit is very important. Note I am not referring to potential coding issues that may or may not arise with this change. |
|
Snipe has been a HUGE problem in late game TvZ in the GSL. Huge, huge problem. A 25 energy ability from a tier 1.5 unit should not be able to completely hard counter an entire tech tree just by simply making a lot of said unit. With the change, Snipe will now be in line with what I always thought it should be - an anti-caster ability that can be used to pick off single units rather than spending the extra energy for an EMP, while still being viable for spot snipes to pick off stray units when the Ghost energy is maxed out anyways. A good change, IMO.
|
I have a huge problem with any argument about tiers. First of all, the actual tier of a unit is often debatable, especially when you compare from races that function very differently. The most important thing that tiers effect is how soon you can get them out. By the time Zerg is using hive tech, tier is not an issue, its the cost of the unit which usually (but not always) correlates progressively with the tier. Ghosts, although available early (relatively low tier) are very expensive and needed in a large quantity to be effective against zerg, making them just as much an endgame unit as the Hive tech for the Zerg. And as far as nerfing snipe, i don't think any posts so far have said it should not be touched at all, mostly the severity of the nerf is being discussed in this thread. And note the proposed nerf effects much more than zerg hive tech's interaction with snipe, it affects all notable units except the (templar/infestor/ghost) which emp is often the spell of choice against anyway. |
|
I was kind of surprised by this change as well. In particular, why they went with the damage reduction direction instead of the cool down direction. like no doubt, it only takes 8 ghosts to melt, with hilarious speed and efficiency, like a dozen bl before they even get a couple broodlings on the ground. the thing is, now snipe is basically useless. in addition whats the point of the bonus to psionic about? isnt that kind of redundant with the whole emp thing? like i get that the ghost is really an anti caster, but why does it have one spell that makes casters in a small area useless and an ability that does double auto attack damage unless its a caster. its like yo dawg, i herd you like anti caster spells...
I really thing a cd would have been better, just to prevent the snipe machine gun thing that way the ghosts can still counter zerg t3, but like in a reasonable manner. like zealots counter zerglings, but they instantly obliterate them. plus a cool down kind of changes the ghost because it takes two snipes to kill a caster, so ghosts have to travel in pairs to pick off casters because you wouldnt be able to double snipe with one ghost. |
Because EMP is not anti-caster.. duh. EMP also takes out shields. EMP is more anti-Protoss, to help soften the army up a little bit before engaging or during engagements. It also hits casters in an area, and works against Sentries, which Snipe does not. Without EMP, Archons would also be roflimpossible to kill for Terran. Snipe is a much, much better choice to use against HTs, and especially Infestors. If players are properly splitting their caster units, you'll only be able to hit 1-2 of them with an EMP. Snipe also permanently KILLS a unit, EMP only removes the unit's energy.. which, in the case of HTs, means they can just warp in an archon and those HTs are now useful again. There are many reasons to have both spells.. all you gotta do is think about it for 5 minutes instead of losing your brains over how radical the change is. |
actually emp is mostly anti caster, with a lager role in TvP only, emp was already nerfed and the matchup has been balanced. Snipe is supposed to be more versatile especially in TvZ by design and it is right now as it is, but will no longer be after patch. What you say about HT/Infestor and snipe is true but does not actually contribute to any argument, talking about the only thing that won't change isn't helpful. Rather than restate my/others arguments, why don't you take the time to read the entire thread, and reread my post. Your post did nothing to address any of the actual issues presented And please, insulting me does not help you argument, it only makes you look arrogant. Use good logic instead of reverting to the ever popular ad hominen logical fallacy. |
|
Because rolling over ghosts with a whack of lings/banelings/fungal is super hard.
A slight cooldown (2~3 seconds) on snipe would have been preferable, not to mention make a lot more sense. But then I remembered Blizzard is part of the company that makes a certain FPS notorious for a certain style of "sniping" ... /facepalm I'd rather see Broodlords get an increase to their speed instead, which they sorely need to begin with and/or reduce Snipe's damage vs Massive units. Again, it's a freaking anti-tank rifle, it's made for piercing heavy armor and hitting pilots/vitals. That said, there's a world of difference between sniping a tank pilot and shooting at, say, a Battlecruiser rofl. So yes I can agree on a nerf to snipe vs massive and/or a cooldown, but lowering the damage vs everything and only giving a boost vs units you're likely to just EMP anyway is bull crap. Ghosts can't even 1-shot marines or a freaking Zergling anymore. Thanks Blizzard, how about you boost their damage then, or nerf fungal growth's damage to compensate :P |
|
Edited by Malacite on 2/12/12 7:38 AM (PST)
It does before combat shields. Marines only have 45 HP and they go up to 55 with shields (and it STILL 1-shots them with the shields if they stim)
Storm could probably use a slight damage buff actually but that's another topic. They should have just nerfed the damage vs massive, which would totally make sense anyways as I previously stated there's a world of difference when it comes to dealing with units that are manned by entire crews (or just too damned big to begin with/mass of living energy) They already nerfed Neural Parasite vs Massive, so what's wrong with doing that to snipe? As it stands, snipe will only do 5 damage more than their regular shots already do to light units... And at 45 damage, snipe already 2-shots Infestors and HT so NOTHING CHANGES on that front. Ironically this update makes it do more damage to Archons, who are also nothing but EMP fodder to ghosts anyway. I honestly don't think they've thought this one through fully. Terran doesn't really have an answer to mass-ultras other than hoping for the best with thors or marauders (or banshees if you can take air control but that rarely happens - burrow charge is going to compound this problem) and IMO vikings are underpowered for what they're meant to do. Not that I feel like mass-snipe should be the go-to option for Ultras or GG Lords, but Blizzard is basically nerfing Terran yet again without offering any sort of counter-balance because people won't stop crying over how imba Terran supposedly still is. MULE nerf is 100% justified, Snipe isn't. They're going to end up making Ghosts the new Reaper outside of TvP |
