LotR-The Dagor Dagorath (Official Thread)

Posts: 1,340
This is dedicated to any suggestions and ideas for my map, The Dagor Dagorath. It's an LotR map set in the Fourth Age (after the War of the Ring, so you probably won't see too many familiar names), based around what might have happened afterwards. For anyone who wants to read the quick storyline I wrote up, it's right here:

It is the year 141, in the Fourth Age. The great King Elessar has been dead for some twenty-one years. Not long after he laid down his life, however, whispers spread that the land of Valinor was vulnerable. To this day, it is not known whence they came, but some listened to these whispers, and spoke of war against the Valar. Eldarion, King of Gondor and son of Elessar, did not wish to go to war, but his voice was drowned out by the common people. The fact that Valinor had long been held outside the normal world was no deterrent to the warmongers, unfortunately. Within fifteen years, almost all of Gondor and Arnor were ready and willing to fight the Valar. However, before they could set sail, a massive plague struck the eastern lands, wiping almost all the lands east of Mordor clean, and driving the survivors westwards. A great war quickly began between Gondor and the Easterlings, and it took four years to drive them back, where the few men remaining in the East began to repopulate the distant lands.

At this time, a man known only as Alatar arrived in Minas Tirith, warning of a greater war to come against dark enemies. Few heeded his warning, though, and continued preparations for the great war against the Valar. Eldarion, however, accepted his counsel and refortified the long-deserted Orthanc, as well as Minas Tirith. He planned to rebuild Minas Ithil as well in the passes of Mordor, but catastrophe struck before he could begin, and the skies grew dark.

Unknown to those in Middle-Earth, Melkor, the Lord of Darkness, had broken the Doors of Night, and destroyed the Sun and Moon. Anar fell far to the south, where few lived, but Isil crashed into the midst of Arnor, causing massive destruction that laid much of the country to waste, including the Shire and Fornost. A great mountain range formed from the cataclysm, made of most of the lands of Arnor, driven up far above the height of even the White Mountains, too tall for even eagles to fly over. This catastrophe forced Valinor back into the world after having been long hidden from those in Middle-Earth, making the idea of war against the Valar a real possibility. What came next, however, was something astonishing.

The lands of Beleriand, long thought to be lost under the waters of great Belegaer, were brought up by the destruction of Isil. Although Amon Sul withstood the disaster and still held many people, most of the surviving people of Arnor migrated to Beleriand, where they rebuilt Nargothrond within one year. The hidden city of Gondolin was also set to be remade, but it was only partially completed when the ongoing preparations against the Valar were diverted.

Sauron's spirit had lingered in the world since the One Ring was destroyed, too weak to do anything. When Melkor broke the Doors of Night, however, he gave power to Sauron, who returned to Middle-Earth to make war upon Gondor once more. Moria had long since been cleansed and rebuilt into Khazad-Dum once more by the Dwarves, but they had abandoned Erebor and the Iron Hills when the plague struck. The Caves of Aglarond, however, formerly under the rule of Gimli the Elf-Friend, prospered from their trade with Rohan and Gondor. Mount Gundabad, which was never subdued completely, made war upon the remnants of Arnor when Melkor returned. Gilthrang, the Ainur who had helped Melkor break the Doors of Night, took over the wreckage of Angband, which had also been brought up from the waters.

During all of this, the Valar had done little, but when Ungoliant, who had been thought dead, came to Avathar with a horde of spiders, and Shelob somehow came to Araman, they quickly mobilized the Elves and Maiar for battle once more. A bitter war started, but the Valar knew what had truly happened. The Dagor Dagorath, the Final Battle, had come at last. . . .

In any case, this LotR map is highly hero-focused, meaning that it's extremely easy to tip the balance of power. One hero dying at the wrong time might be enough to turn the tide towards one side or another. Major heroes have multiple abilities, many of which can devastate armies with proper usage, while minor heroes have one or no abilities, but the minor heroes can reach incredible strength in the most straightforward sense: pure firepower.

There are three teams in this map (Valinor, Humans, and Evil), but initially the Valar and Humans have to join up against the forces of Evil. If those forces are losing badly, however, then the alliance will swiftly fall apart, leading to a full-on three-way war. To help tip the balance in your favour again if your team is losing, there are a number of findable heroes, and even the Silmarils of Feanor are present, if you can uncover them.

You upgrade individual bases, so you have multiple options in the early stages of the game. Later on, heroes can pull off great feats, such as rushing bases, or even teleporting directly into them with a handful of allies! If anyone has an idea for this map, feel free to post it here! If you want to play this, but can't find the players for it, or just have no idea how to play, try the channel (lotr), as many very skilled LotR-ish players are there.
Edited by Palamani on 2/29/2012 4:34 PM PST
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Posts: 18
bumb; join the "lotr" channle for more lotr games

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Posts: 1,340
Ahhh, right, forgot to mention the channel. I'll add that right now.
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Posts: 67
-Give me WK or give me death (or Nazgul), their was only 7 Balrogs in the books but in game you can have more than 7
-Maybe allow Melkor, Sauron and Ungoliant to get the Silmarils as Melkor did hold all 3 and Ungo nearly went nom nom nom on them
-Moria turrets last time i checked can be hit by broodlords
-Unerf Moria ( terrain Changes and the siege tank cap)
-As much as I love Raid, its a bit ridiculous, cough *Moria* cough
-Mumakil aren't nearlly as good as any other factions elite units, Balrogs, Great Spiders, Guardians of the White tree, Dunedain, Dwarf lords, lesser Maia, Elven Archers, Swan Knights, Guardians of Aglarond, et cetera
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Posts: 1,340
-No. It doesn't make much sense to add the Nazgul. As for that "only 7 Balrogs" bit, there were more than that at the time of the War of Wrath.
-True, but the Silmarils didn't tolerate the touch of evil. I do need to add some findable buff for Evil, but I have no real ideas about what to use.
-Hopefully, I fixed that yesterday. Tell me later if it's still a problem.
-Without the terrain changes and low cap on catapults, Khazad-Dum is basically unkillable in the hands of a skilled player.
-Blocking Raid is very simple, provided you pay attention. The people who teleport in are stunned for 3.5 seconds after they appear. That gives you plenty of time to deal with them-focus down a hero, stasis the units, whatever.
-Mumakil are weak? I can try buffing them if that's your concern, but they are designed as tanks (6000 hitpoints and about 100 armor?), not as the kind of elite where you mass 30 of them and rush a base (or Raid it), although several of them with a Raid or drop can take hits quite effectively.
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Posts: 106
I agree with Paragon on Adding WK although u just added Khand lord u could just remove khand lord and add wk as a ranged 6 pierce swarm and all armor, so he would have low damage but full pierce, and be a major hero level. He could start at Dol Guldr which would be very easy to op if gondor chooses to but would also give time for fortifying Umbar, or vise versa if he drops umbar you have time to fortify Guldr.
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Posts: 1,340
I agree with Paragon on Adding WK although u just added Khand lord u could just remove khand lord and add wk as a ranged 6 pierce swarm and all armor, so he would have low damage but full pierce, and be a major hero level. He could start at Dol Guldr which would be very easy to op if gondor chooses to but would also give time for fortifying Umbar, or vise versa if he drops umbar you have time to fortify Guldr.

Okay, what? I just added a hero for Sauron, why does he need another one to deal with Dark Swarm? As for Umbar, I'll admit that it's a bit too easy to drop, but I can't think of a practical way of dealing with it (giving the Corsair Lord his piercing back would probably be too much). I can buff the Lord of Khand if he's not proving to be enough to defend Umbar.
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Posts: 106
I still think the Dol Guldr bit is an important base because it was essentially sauron fortress while he regained his power, and maybe make the WK a findy at the 20 minute mark or something like if sauron dies WK is spawned at Mordor ( if u still have it) so that a Mordor player will not RQ, or add him if you use my later rohan idea. Also i think that you should remove elfstan and buff andumcail and romendacil. Also make romendacil selectable when you select together ( when you click and drag select he isnt included). And add one more cave base, shelobs lair in saurons base for Ungoliant. All it does is can be upped once and gives something like 3 spiders (lurker ) after the first upgrade. This would mainly be so Ungoliant has a safe place to tunnel to sauron (as it would be heavily guarded even if it isn't that great of a spawn) if sauron is being crushed so he can provide some support.

Make Rohan a player....
Orthanc, Arglarond, Edoras, same spawns for orthanc n arglarond, also possibly add fangorn forest with ents n woses
Edoras #1 upgrade: 1 rine 1 swordsman, is how it starts
#2 is 2 rine 2 swordsmen 1 rohirrim ( still the reaper)
#3 is 4 rines 4 swordsmen 2 rohirrim
#4 is 6 rine 6 swordsmen 2 rohhirim and 1 horselord ( either a vulture, hellion, or diamondback)

If you add Fangorn:
#1( how it starts): 1 Wose ( they have bows so make a ranged guy)
#2: 2 Wose
#3: 3 Wose 1 ent ( i have no idea what an ent would be)

heroes would be goldwine as a major, make his attack air n ground, give them treebeard as a minor or major, just remove him from being a findy, and possibly a Wose Chieftain( the guys who gave directions to theoden when he rode to aid minas tirith)

Rohan would help against sauron and melkor and would also fight the valar.

I can only see 4 problems:
1. There would be two battle commander against saurons 1.
2. Sauron will be out microed.
3. You need more players, BUT you could always share Rohan cause it isnt a big area.
4. Gondor loses spawns.
But my solution for the fourth is cair andros n osgiliath both would need major protection though also maybe lamedon??Only problem with that is that it would make gondor n Rohan more powerful against sauron, but that may be a good thing because so far i have seen a lot more sauron victories or ties against gondor than gondor wins also if you add shelobs lair you get Ungo coming to help.

Lol i have to add this Tl;Dr ( of course im joking and you already read the whole thing :D)
Edited by CupcakeEater on 5/24/2012 7:25 PM PDT
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Posts: 106
1)I find the lord of khand is useless, when ever he tries to do any thing he gets gunned down, and i don't think i have ever leveled him except for maybe once or twice and that was only to level one or maybe two.
2)I am still insisting you make Dol Guldur, or make it a buy findy for sauron only. Make it like 18500 and it gives Guldur and WK, but WK is still a slightly weaker spirit and is a caster BUT give him these abilities; Nazgul Touch: Cost 25 mana Cooldown 30 sec, WK kills off an enemy unit ( only biological maybe or just any troop) and turns him into a wraith. Second give him raid ( as he was the mastermind besides sauron at the siege of minas). Third give fell cry stuns within about 6-8 range and does magical damage. Finally give him an aura that increases attack speed by 10% range by .5 and move by 15% BUT make it drain his mana at like 2 per sec and you can turn the auro on or off, and call it Witch Kings Presence.
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but that may be a good thing because so far i have seen a lot more sauron victories or ties against gondor than gondor wins

There was never supposed to be a 50/50 win ratio between Gondor and Sauron, excluding all other players. What I've been seeing is Melkor players never attacking Valinor, which leaves Ungoliant to get crushed and Beleriand to be crushed as well. Melkor ends up paying for that lack of attention to the west later, though, when Valinor rolls over the Doors of Night (or sooner, when they decide to Raid or drop it).

1)I find the lord of khand is useless, when ever he tries to do any thing he gets gunned down, and i don't think i have ever leveled him except for maybe once or twice and that was only to level one or maybe two.

I'll grant that this has bothered me as well. The best solution I can come up with is to weaken Hyarmendacil's melee attack, which is probably too strong.

2)I am still insisting you make Dol Guldur,

I might try this, but the Witch-King is most likely not going in.
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Posts: 3
Nor Should he. According to the final books of the LotR series, the Nazgul were destroyed. Not Banished, but completely destroyed when Sauron was banished from Middle-Earth. Melkor returned Sauron to Middle-Earth, yes, but not the Nazgul. It's not stated anywhere that the Nazgul have returned with Sauron. It'd be akin to adding Saurmon. If anything, add in something representing the Animals-To-Call that Sauron has at his disposal. Werewolves, Vampires, and the like.
Dol Guldor was completely destroyed during the Third Age; Mirkwood tore it down all the way. Sure, Sauron could have rebuilt it, but even that seems unrealistic.
If you want to add in Dol Guldor as a fluff, then it'll work, no problem.
I have a question to ask; where are the findies? I found Treebeard, but that's about it.
The Lord of Khand... hmm, he's not very good. I find his weakness being his size. Sure, he hits hard and has decent hp, but his size promises that he'll get smacked the moment he's noticed, and since he has the only model like that, he'll be noticed quickly.
If you *must* add in the Witch King, give him as a melee-based hero. Maybe a Zealot or something, to counter-balance the terribleness that's Lord of Khand.
Murmakil are decent enough. They're big and tanky, which is a nice reprieve from the weak orcs.
Oh yes, is there a reason Tulkas, the Champion of the Valar, isn't a hero?
Why is Turin melee when he "Swore to kill Melkor" who is a space-ship? At least make Turin able to attack air :P
Thuringwethil or Draugluin would make for excellent additions to Sauron's hero list. However, both are dead, Like WK.
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I have a question to ask; where are the findies? I found Treebeard, but that's about it.

I'm not about to post that here, but there are at least half a dozen other heroes to be found. Most are only available for one or two sides (Treebeard, for instance, can't be found by any of the Evil players), so you can't grab them all in one game.

The Lord of Khand... hmm, he's not very good. I find his weakness being his size. Sure, he hits hard and has decent hp, but his size promises that he'll get smacked the moment he's noticed, and since he has the only model like that, he'll be noticed quickly.

This is a rather sticky point, and something that virtually every melee hero is vulnerable to. Turin has this problem (and the same model, essentially), and Durin sticks out as well.

Oh yes, is there a reason Tulkas, the Champion of the Valar, isn't a hero?

I simply ran out of room for heroes. Valinor has the most heroes by far of the three teams (11 to start with, and several more as findables), and I couldn't cover them all. If I had actually thrown most of the potential ideas in, such as Elrond and Tulkas, they would easily double their heroes. The Valar alone numbered 14, then there's at least six Maiar to account for, and Elves after that.

Why is Turin melee when he "Swore to kill Melkor" who is a space-ship? At least make Turin able to attack air :P

I'll grant that this is a bit paradoxical, but the Elves really needed a melee hero to deal with any Dark Swarms (Ulmo is the only other hero they have who can penetrate it, and he can't hide under it himself; besides, he gets eaten alive by Shelob). I also created the Grab ability for that reason, so Turin (and a couple of other heroes) could yank Melkor and company down to the ground for a few seconds and pound on them.
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