StarCraft® II

Should Raynor and Mengsk have died in BW?

In "True Colors", Kerrigan tells her minions that both Raynor and Fenix need to be eliminated, as they proved themselves to be "uncannily resourceful". For some reason, however, in the actual mission, she seems content with Fenix's death and doesn't look concerned about Raynor anymore.

She also thought killing Duke would suffice to neutralize Arcturus... but the latter proved her wrong by showing up on Char Aleph. Despite him getting defeated, he told her he would be back.

What do you think? Should Kerrigan have finished them off both instead of just letting them live?
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What do you think? Should Kerrigan have finished them off both instead of just letting them live?


Probably. But one, that would've destroyed the story, and two, part of her character is about exacting revenge against those she hates even if that revenge means leaving them alive to anguish in their defeat instead of killing them and being rid of them. Also, she's arrogant and obsessed with her own power. By the end of BW, she really is the Queen !@#$% of the universe anyway. No one could really contest her power. It took a magic Xel'naga rock to bring her to her knees in WoL. Without that, there was no way of stopping her.

For all we know, her original plan could have been to let Raynor and Mengsk despair for a year or two and then finish them off, but the emergence of the hybrids distracted her and stayed her wrath until WoL.
Edited by Chrono on 3/2/2012 10:42 AM PST
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There is also the fact that she was planning on backstabbing them from the beginning, but it's not like she knew the exact time and place. The betrayal of "True Colors" always struck me as too good too pass up. In her speech she says "Without General Duke, Mengsk will be easy to deal with. But Raynor and Fenix are uncannily resourceful. They must all be eradicated." Obviously marking Duke as the pitbull. There is some ambiguity in Raynor and Fenix though. Does she mean that Raynor is uncannily resourceful AND Fenix is also uncannily resourceful or does she mean that AS A TEAM Raynor and Fenix are uncannily resourceful. Regardless, she wants them all dead!

I have always taken the portrait talking without the camera centering on a unit to indicate that whoever is talking is not in the theater of war. I'm not sure where Raynor and Mengsk were when they make their little "ohh man why'd ya kill my buddy?" speeches, but I don't think they were supposed to be interpreted as near enough to the conflict that Kerriagan could actually harm them. I always assumed that they were far from the front: possibly in orbit, off world, etc. If they are just supposed to be hanging out in a command center 20 yards away or something, then yeah she should have killed them, but I don't think that is the case. I also don't see Raynor and Mengsk hanging out together, so it seems like given her golden opportunity the best option for her is take out 2 of the 4 marked targets. Strategically she probably ideally wanted to kill Duke and Raynor since she specifically says that Duke is the more dangerous of the Mengsk/Duke team, but the opportunity only presented itself as kill Fenix/Duke or Mengsk or Raynor. The Fenix/Duke option seemed the best option.
Edited by Andrew on 3/2/2012 11:48 AM PST
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Now, *that* would have been ballsy.

Maybe even too much... :/
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I could see her not killing Raynor or Fenix, simply due to her incredible arrogance. Like yes, it would be smart to eliminate several of her opponents when she gets the chance, but the Queen of Blades has always been a very prideful creature, keen to underestimate people and/or toy with them rather than finish them off, such as Tassadar and/or Dugalle. She also smack talk's a fair about. She is a very BM sort of Queen !@#$% of the Universe :-)

Now the Mengsk thing though, yeah, I cannot think of a reason not to kill him. He has proven himself to be utterly ruthless and a serious threat to her over and over again. Plus she has CLEAR motivations for wanting vengeance. The line that she would rather seem him suffer than be killed is just way too hollow of a defense for me. I mean, he doesn't really seem to be suffering that much personally, and is still ruling a fairly large interstellar empire! Mengsk should have been dead a long time ago, and I can't wait for him to finally bite it!
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... Huh, she did kill Fenix. Maybe you meant to say "Mengsk"? :/
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03/02/2012 05:35 PMPosted by JohnnyZeWolf
... Huh, she did kill Fenix. Maybe you meant to say "Mengsk"? :/


I know she did kill Fenix, but Fenix is a character I could at least see her not killing. Like if she had decided not to, I could understand that.....it wouldn't be a smart move, but it would be within her character I think.

I know she did kill him though, but she just as easily could not have and I would have been on board with it; unlike how she has dealt with Mengsk.
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Why wouldn't it have been a smart move to spare Fenix? Kerrigan had no beef with him and, like Duke, he had proved himself to be nowhere as resourceful as Raynor and Mengsk: the former managed to outsmart the Dominion on Tarsonis and then the Zerg on Char, and was instrumental in defeating the Overmind while the former convinced a loyal Confederate general to defect and overthrew the Confederacy.

You gotta wonder if she focused on the lesser threats on purpose. Hopefully, Heart of the Swarm will provide us with some answers in that regard.
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Why wouldn't it have been a smart move to spare Fenix? Kerrigan had no beef with him and, like Duke, he had proved himself to be nowhere as resourceful as Raynor and Mengsk: the former managed to outsmart the Dominion on Tarsonis and then the Zerg on Char, and was instrumental in defeating the Overmind while the former convinced a loyal Confederate general to defect and overthrew the Confederacy.

You gotta wonder if she focused on the lesser threats on purpose. Hopefully, Heart of the Swarm will provide us with some answers in that regard.




I don't think she focuses on 'lesser' threats on purpose. In fact, I feel like if she perceives an adversary as a 'lesser' threat (whether they truly are or not) she is more likely (although not guaranteed) to let them live longer than they should, either due to underestimation or due to a desire to toy with them.

That being said, overall, it is hard to predict since Kerrigan is sort of whimsical when it comes to killing people. Sometimes I feel like she would kill somebody for no other reason than she just felt like it. Other times I feel she is very purpose driven and methodical in who she targets and why. It seems to vary. It is not an absolute thing, as there are exceptions to both cases.


Regarding Fenix specifically, I do not think it makes a big difference either way. From a 'is killing him/letting him live reasonable given Kerrigan's established nature' angle, both options are totally plausible.

From a 'is letting Fenix live a SMART/GOOD IDEA' angle, I think it would have been a bad idea. Yes, I would classify him in the 'lesser threat' category, but that does not mean that letting him live is a GOOD idea. He could still cause some amount of harm. I mean, if he was on some distant world, he probably would not be worth the resources to go chase him down, but if he's right there on the planet with your swarm and everything, and it's convenient....why not kill him? There is no specific reason to spare him. Lesser threats are still threats.....although sometimes Kerrigan's hubris prevents her from realizing this.....which is why it would have made sense either way in terms of Fenix's survival.

All in all, I honestly don't get hung up on how she handled the Fenix situation. The decision to spare Mengsk though, that doesn't make sense from the 'would it have been smart' OR the 'does that fit within her character' angle. I just don't get it. It seems like a nonsensical hap-hazard decision by Blizzard made just to ensure the possibility of future plot lines with the character.
Edited by Valkar on 3/3/2012 5:58 PM PST
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It would have been funny if he died in the final mission =)
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You mean, Fenix? Yeah, I can see him coming to Char Aleph to avenge Raynor, had Kerrigan killed the latter instead of the former. More than Artanis showing up, that's for sure; he knew about the death of both Fenix and Raszagal, yet he was apparently oblivious of the former's whereabouts and was also not part of Zeratul's initial force.
Edited by JohnnyZeWolf on 3/4/2012 4:27 PM PST
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Why wouldn't it have been a smart move to spare Fenix? Kerrigan had no beef with him and, like Duke, he had proved himself to be nowhere as resourceful as Raynor and Mengsk: the former managed to outsmart the Dominion on Tarsonis and then the Zerg on Char, and was instrumental in defeating the Overmind while the former convinced a loyal Confederate general to defect and overthrew the Confederacy.

You gotta wonder if she focused on the lesser threats on purpose. Hopefully, Heart of the Swarm will provide us with some answers in that regard.


Of the two pairs, she likely puts Raynor as more dangerous than Fenix, but also emotionally harder to kill given their (even non-retconned) past. And she explicitly states that Duke is more dangerous than Mengsk. How she ranks Fenix to Duke is unknown, but basic logic demonstrates that Duke and Fenix cannot be the "lesser threats" simply because she specifically places Duke above Mengsk. F and D may not be her top threats, but they are not her lesser threats either. Assuming conditions most favorable to your point, yet still consistent with the facts, assume Raynor is her top threat (and that she places Duke above Mengsk) her threat list must be one of the following:
1) Raynor, Fenix, Duke, Mengsk
or
2) Raynor, Duke, Fenix, Mengsk
or
3) Raynor, Duke, Mengsk, Fenix

So even if she considers Fenix the least threatening (list 3), her plan still bumps off her 2nd strongest opponent with Fenix as something like a bonus, BUT if she places Duke and Fenix as her middle picks, then her plan is even stronger as it bumps off her 2nd strongest opponent AND 3rd strongest opponents. Her strategy is a good game theory move.
Edited by Andrew on 3/4/2012 3:11 PM PST
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Well I'm guessing she killed them since they were the closest to her main forces. She only had about 6 mins to deploy her ambush. By the time Fenix and Duke's forces were in combat with Kerrigan, Raynor and Mengsk would obviously have had back-up plans for either fight or flight against her. So most likely, she didn't have all the time in the world to get Raynor or Mengsk as well( They also didn't stand much of a chance considering their low resources).
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The main reason why Kerrigan didn't go after Raynor right after killing off Fenix's forces. Part of her still loved Raynor - not enough to spare his buddy Fenix and his Protoss friends, but enough to feel 'sickened by the slaughter' afterwards. The Queen B-H of the universe had a moment of remorse.
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It didn't sound as if she was remorseful. More like she was tired of fighting boring enemies; I know I was.

Why would she have a moment of remorse anyway? She killed Edmund Duke and got to piss Arcturus off; in some way, you could also say she got her revenge on Tassadar by taking on Fenix. And she also wanted to kill Raynor anyway; when the latter start yelling at her, she doesn't even seem to care.

Besides, she just kept being a horrible person for the rest of the campaign.
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I think it was more because Raynor and Mengsk fled after seeing Duke and Fenix's forces slaughtered. Also, didn't Kerrigan say she was tired at the end of the mission? Probably why she was too lazy to finish off Raynor and Mengsk.
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Yeah, I guess so. "Lazy" does indeed suit the Queen of Blades well enough.

Another reason to be hyped for HotS, as it has been confirmed that she will lead her Broods in almost every mission. And with her Sarah persona back, she will hopefully drop the "spoiled princess" attitude.
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I think it would have made a more appropriate ending in BW had the 3 fleets been arcturus, the UED, and then raynor+fenix's force survivors. Then during the final push, all 3 of them die. When tassadar died, it did not destroy the protoss campaign, they even introduced new characters and tassadar was viewed as a hero. We may have followed valerian in his pursuits had this happened. It would have made an interesting story.
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