Does SC2 destroy the feel of the orginal lore

Posts: 10,296
... Is my opinion really that important to you? Is obsessing over it really going to change anything?

I don't think Wings of Liberty is great, just better than SC1/BW. I'm all for Blizzard improving the storytelling of the StarCraft franchise, but idealizing the original games is definitely not the way to come with valid criticisms.

Ever wondered why I get along so well with people such as Brathearon, but also TcheQuevera and Subsourian? That's because there's mutual respect between each other: I respect their opinion, and they respect mine.

You know what they say: you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Give it a try sometimes.
Edited by JohnnyZeWolf on 4/27/2012 1:16 PM PDT
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No, Wings story was pretty bad. It followed the stale formula of gathering your allies or resources(artifacts) to face the final enemy. The side stories unimportant and not connected at all to the final chapter. As said, the freedom to pick mission order broke the game.
There is no story in wings of liberty. It starts as to overthrow Mengsk, then to get money to over throw him. Then to discredit him, then to stop Kerrigan.
And it turns out the way we were gathering to fund the rebellion against Mengsk was the only way to stop Kerrigan.

Are we to
Believe that valarian knew of the artifacts potential all along? That's just poor story telling. Why were these artifacts made when the Xel'naga were caught off guard by the Zerg's outlash.
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04/28/2012 05:00 AMPosted by Stepback
The side stories unimportant and not connected at all to the final chapter.


Of course, as they are here to establish the lore: that's the job of a first installment in a trilogy.

It would have been kind of contrived if every stinkin' subplot was to have a direct impact on the final chapter. The Koprulu Sector is vast, and not everyone happens to have some super asset hiding in their attic for Raynor to exploit in his fight against Mengsk/Kerrigan.

It starts as to overthrow Mengsk, then to get money to over throw him. Then to discredit him, then to stop Kerrigan. And it turns out the way we were gathering to fund the rebellion against Mengsk was the only way to stop Kerrigan.


You would have preferred a completely straightforward story where all Raynor does is fighting Kerrigan?

A story has to feature plot twists. In Rebel Yell, you don't spend the entire campaign defending Mar Sara; the human campaign in WarCraft III: Reign of Chaos isn't really about fighting Orc remnants nor does you spend the rest of the campaign defending Lordaeron against the Plague.

Are we to believe that valarian knew of the artifacts potential all along?


Why would he even bother with them in the first place if he didn't know?

Why were these artifacts made when the Xel'naga were caught off guard by the Zerg's outlash?


Why was the similarly-working Xel'Naga Temple on Shakuras there to begin with?

The writers have already implied that desinfesting Kerrigan may have been just a side-effect.
Edited by JohnnyZeWolf on 4/28/2012 7:57 AM PDT
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04/28/2012 07:47 AMPosted by JohnnyZeWolf
It would have been kind of contrived if every stinkin' subplot was to have a direct impact on the final chapter. The Koprulu Sector is vast, and not everyone happens to have some super asset hiding in their attic for Raynor to exploit in his fight against Mengsk/Kerrigan.

This seems to be one of the few things we can agree upon.

04/28/2012 07:47 AMPosted by JohnnyZeWolf
Why was the similarly-working Xel'Naga Temple on Shakuras there to begin with?

I have no intention of defending the BW Xel-Naga Temple as a plot device, but I would like to clear up a common misunderstanding: that the temple was constructed by the Xel'Naga. It is described in the following way:

Raszagal : And yet, there lies a dormant power here that can help us to scour the Zerg from Shakuras forever. Long ago, we Dark Templar were a nomadic people. But when we found a remarkable monument upon this world, we decided to remain here to study it. We discovered that the enormous structure is actually an ancient Xel'Naga temple, dedicated to the race that sired us all. The Temple is situated above a nexus of powerful cosmic energies.

It would be rather vain for a race to dedicate a temple to themselves, no? Bood War does not clarify the origin of the temple (almost as if they don't want the player to dwell on this plot contrivance any longer than is necessary).

Edit: Brood War seems very confused on this matter, because later Raszagal says:
Raszagal : Executor, you shall provide escort for Artanis and Zeratul as they make their way to the Temple. Gods willing, we will channel the energies of the Xel'Naga, and scour this world clean of the Zerg!

In what way will the temple "channel the energies of the Xel'Naga"? Maybe the Xel'Naga did construct the temple and dedicated it to themselves in order to play god with one of their creations (perhaps the Protoss). Or maybe the temple was constructed by another race (again, perhaps the Protoss) with the assistance of the Xel'Naga. Or perhaps the Protoss refer to all crystal power as Xel'Naga power because that is what the Xel'Naga were reknowned for. It's never explained.
Edited by AkuChi on 4/28/2012 8:36 AM PDT
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04/28/2012 08:23 AMPosted by AkuChi
This seems to be one of the few things we can agree upon.


Actually, we agree on a lot of things. It's just that I've learned not to take things personally.

Just because I defend something doesn't mean I like it... but I can bring myself to understand it.
Edited by JohnnyZeWolf on 4/28/2012 8:43 AM PDT
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04/26/2012 06:24 PMPosted by JohnnyZeWolf
I don't think Wings of Liberty is great, just better than SC1/BW. I'm all for Blizzard improving the storytelling of the StarCraft franchise, but idealizing the original games is definitely not the way to come with valid criticisms.

The "nostalgia" argument is a prety vacuous defense for Wings of Liberty's faults. People should really aim to do better than this when presented with a criticism against Wings of Liberty. It would be just as easy to call Wings of Liberty defenders fanboys who idealize all blizzard games, but that gets us nowhere. Create a thread about Brood War if you'd like, but bringing it up for no reason is no way a valid defense for WoL's flaws. It's simply a logical fallacy.

The only area that BW falls short is the fact that it was made in 1999. BW's shorter script, talking heads, and overall lack of art assets certainly worked to its detriment in comparison to WoL. Wings of Liberty may have a beautiful exterior, but on the inside it is hollow. It has no soul compared to Brood War, which managed to convey far more story with its far shorter script than WoL.

The side stories unimportant and not connected at all to the final chapter.


Of course, as they are here to establish the lore: that's the job of a first installment in a trilogy.

It would have been kind of contrived if every stinkin' subplot was to have a direct impact on the final chapter. The Koprulu Sector is vast, and not everyone happens to have some super asset hiding in their attic for Raynor to exploit in his fight against Mengsk/Kerrigan.

I don't think that's really the argument, that there are subplots. Rather it's that the subplots don't jibe with one another at all. The seemingly random jumps from "zerg invasion" to "lets go pillage some artifacts" to "let's take down the dominion" are jarring and incongruous. And in Wings of Liberty's case, the reason its plot is so flimsy in the first place is because the vast majority of the game consisted of these "subplots", leaving only like 4 missions out of 30 to deal with the main plot. There are better ways to establish the background than having the game be 90% subplots, as it leaves the player wondering what the point of the game he just played was.

StarCraft vanilla for example did a good job at establishing the background through its cinematics. The campaigns had a main singular plot, and the random cinematics were just left for worldbuilding. Wings of Liberty decided to do the opposite. Have the cinematics be plot-relevant, but the actual campaign not!

The Koprulu Sector is vast, and not everyone happens to have some super asset hiding in their attic for Raynor to exploit in his fight against Mengsk/Kerrigan.

But that's what happens with the artifact missions. The artifact pieces are really just an excuse for you to go out and do something for no very compelling reason (such as attack fanatics, walk into rip fields, and blast open a vault with a giant laser). This isn't always bad since it gives characters an opportunity to interact, but relying on it to drive your story instead of characters' motivations is problematic. At least in BW the motivations were much more interesting than in WoL. Kerrigan needed the temple activated so that she could destroy her former cerebrate allies in order to gain control of their broods. She was then forced to work with the Protoss (her former enemies), who needed it activated as well in order to save their planet.

Wings of Liberty? Well, Raynor just needs some cash. How riveting. <_<

Why was the similarly-working Xel'Naga Temple on Shakuras there to begin with?

I have no intention of defending the BW Xel-Naga Temple as a plot device, but I would like to clear up a common misunderstanding: that the temple was constructed by the Xel'Naga. It is described in the following way:

Raszagal : And yet, there lies a dormant power here that can help us to scour the Zerg from Shakuras forever. Long ago, we Dark Templar were a nomadic people. But when we found a remarkable monument upon this world, we decided to remain here to study it. We discovered that the enormous structure is actually an ancient Xel'Naga temple, dedicated to the race that sired us all. The Temple is situated above a nexus of powerful cosmic energies.

It would be rather vain for a race to dedicate a temple to themselves, no? Bood War does not clarify the origin of the temple (almost as if they don't want the player to dwell on this plot contrivance any longer than is necessary).

Edit: Brood War seems very confused on this matter, because later Raszagal says:
Raszagal : Executor, you shall provide escort for Artanis and Zeratul as they make their way to the Temple. Gods willing, we will channel the energies of the Xel'Naga, and scour this world clean of the Zerg!

In what way will the temple "channel the energies of the Xel'Naga"? Maybe the Xel'Naga did construct the temple and dedicated it to themselves in order to play god with one of their creations (perhaps the Protoss). Or maybe the temple was constructed by another race (again, perhaps the Protoss) with the assistance of the Xel'Naga. Or perhaps the Protoss refer to all crystal power as Xel'Naga power because that is what the Xel'Naga were reknowned for. It's never explained.

The Xel'Naga created the Uraj and Khalis crystals, as well as empowering the protoss with khala and void, so that's why the temple channels the energies of the xel'naga. The Xel'Naga obviously created the temple. The word "dedicated" means "devoted to a task or purpose." The Xel'Naga created the temple to serve one of their tasks or purposes, not to be a vainglorious monument to themselves, so this nitpick is pretty frivolous.

~Gradius
Edited by SCLegacy on 4/28/2012 11:02 AM PDT
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The "nostalgia" argument is a prety vacuous defense for Wings of Liberty's faults. People should really aim to do better than this when presented with a criticism against Wings of Liberty. It would be just as easy to call Wings of Liberty defenders fanboys who idealize all blizzard games, but that gets us nowhere. Create a thread about Brood War if you'd like, but bringing it up for no reason is no way a valid defense for WoL's flaws. It's simply a logical fallacy.

The only area that BW falls short is the fact that it was made in 1999. BW's shorter script, talking heads, and overall lack of art assets certainly worked to its detriment in comparison to WoL. Wings of Liberty may have a beautiful exterior, but on the inside it is hollow. It has no soul compared to Brood War, which managed to convey far more story with its far shorter script than WoL.


That is not what happens at all. What we do is point out similar if not exactly the same events that happened in a previous game such as SC1 and BW and see how it was praised for having such an event, while when WoL has the same event it is criticized. The only explanation for that is nostalgia, which is probably why you feel we say that to you. It is strange that the only reason someone would hate something is because it appears in a sequel.

Not only do we do that, but when someone points out a "plot hole" we explain it with easily available information, but people choose not to accept it.

I don't think that's really the argument, that there are subplots. Rather it's that the subplots don't jibe with one another at all. The seemingly random jumps from "zerg invasion" to "lets go pillage some artifacts" to "let's take down the dominion" are jarring and incongruous. And in Wings of Liberty's case, the reason its plot is so flimsy in the first place is because the vast majority of the game consisted of these "subplots", leaving only like 4 missions out of 30 to deal with the main plot. There are better ways to establish the background than having the game be 90% subplots, as it leaves the player wondering what the point of the game he just played was.

StarCraft vanilla for example did a good job at establishing the background through its cinematics. The campaigns had a main singular plot, and the random cinematics were just left for worldbuilding. Wings of Liberty decided to do the opposite. Have the cinematics be plot-relevant, but the actual campaign not!


SC1 did a much worse job at a background. You barely had any feel at all compared to what WoL did and in the end it felt like the terran SC1 campaign as a whole was almost meaningless aside for the mission where kerrigan gets captured. The campaign side missions all relevant. You would not be involved with tosh and hanson at all had it not been for the zerg invasion and the dominion's reaction to it, and you also would not be involved with the artifact missions had it not directly been necessary for valerian's plan. Taking down the dominion and the zerg invasion are two of the biggest parts of the story. However, these "side" missions as you call them also give a great deal of detail for other stories.

Basically, the first thing that happens is that you are finally making some progress against the dominion, however a zerg invasion comes in between. A zerg invasion will understandably make your objectives jump. As people complained, raynor cannot handle everything going on. So with these side missions you claim are useless, he starts to build up enough forces to do what needs to be done. If you choose to ignore this fact, obviously you will see this as something bad in the story.

The dominion's reaction to the invasion was to withdraw from the fringe worlds. Why dont we see the impact of that? Oh wait, but we do! We actually attempt to handle it, but in the end it was not handled as well as it could have.

One of the largest sources of income the raiders have are missions from tosh and missions fromt he moebius foundation. We already know how important the artifact missions are in the story. Kerrigan herself was a ghost, and ghosts themselves are an important part of the terran universe. So, not only does it help to show raynor strengthening his forces, but it also gives ghost lore. Just because the story is fulfilling multiple roles does not mean that the primary role does not exist.

The Xel'Naga created the Uraj and Khalis crystals, as well as empowering the protoss with khala and void, so that's why the temple channels the energies of the xel'naga. The Xel'Naga obviously created the temple. The word "dedicated" means "devoted to a task or purpose." The Xel'Naga created the temple to serve one of their tasks or purposes, not to be a vainglorious monument to themselves, so this nitpick is pretty frivolous.

~Gradius


It wasnt a nitpick. It was once again pointing to how an event was already present in SC1/BW.
Edited by Brathearon on 4/28/2012 5:05 PM PDT
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It would be just as easy to call Wings of Liberty defenders fanboys who idealize all blizzard games.


That's actually the complete opposite of what I do.

Wings of Liberty may have a beautiful exterior, but on the inside it is hollow. It has no soul compared to Brood War, which managed to convey far more story with its far shorter script than WoL.


But Brood War doesn't even convey much story to begin with: Blizzard could have easily ignored it altogether - just like what Monolith and Valve did with the expansions for FEAR and Half-Life 1, respectively - and nothing would have been lost. I don't think that's what the franchise needs right now.

StarCraft vanilla for example did a good job at establishing the background through its cinematics. The campaigns had a main singular plot, and the random cinematics were just left for worldbuilding.


I don't see what's so worldbuilding about harmless Terran space scavengers getting obliterated by a Protoss warship, gay rangers getting slaughtered by the Zerg, cheesy wraith pilots shooting at some kind of Confederate satellite thingy, expandable Terran marines getting rushed by Hydralisks inside a science vessel or even more dimwitted Terran soldiers getting blasted point-blank by sneaky Dragoons. All they tell me about the lore is that Terrans are dumb and incompetent, and Protoss are cowardly jerks.

Actual worldbuilding is helping defenseless civilians escape the Zerg and protecting them from infestation, hearing Swann talk about Meinhoff's bloody history, facing the Tal'Darim, helping Tosh rebuild his Spectre army/Nova track down Tosh's goons, witnessing the Protoss purifier in action, exposing Mengsk's war crime, discovering a hybrid-breeding facility and reliving Zeratul's memories through an Ihan crystal.

Hanson and Tosh may not come back, but the lore elements they help introducing could definitely play a role in future StarCraft installments (SC2 and beyond); we may see more of the Spectres, more of the Tal'Darim, more of the Zerg Virus and the subsequent efforts to cure it, more of Nova and so on.
Edited by JohnnyZeWolf on 4/28/2012 3:05 PM PDT
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Criticiser: "Tychus' deal only worked because everyone around him had to act stupid."

Brathearon: "Ya? well... Starcraft - Episode One was filler. So HA"

Yup. May not be exactly how it works with Brathearon, but the basic idea of how he goes about defending WoL is correct.


tychus's deal was unique and was never shown to be similar to anything from SC1 or BW, can you specifically point to the post you are referring to? If we were to compare the terran campaign of SC1 to WoL we would find something like this - People get upset about how WoL goes about taking down a corrupt government despite that not being the biggest concern regarding all the races in the sector, however SC1's terran campaign does the same thing and is praised for it.

If you are confused about the tychus deal, consider a few things. Tychus would only agree to a deal that he would agree to. Now that may seem obvious, but many people overlook that. Tychus is already serving his life sentence for raynor. If he was going to betray raynor, he would have done so a long time ago. Also, almost throughout the entire time tychus is with raynor, he always had an opportunity to betray and/or kill him safely.

Given their history, what tychus could have done, and what tychus does for raynor in the campaign, raynor has really good reasons to trust tychus. I can go into more detail if you'd like, but im sure you have seen everything we discussed about the tychus deal.
Edited by Brathearon on 4/28/2012 6:08 PM PDT
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Blizzard DID ignore Brood War. Skip from Vanilla SC to Wings of Liberty and nothing would feel missing.


Unfortunately (for me), that's not the case: the installation recap does acknowledge the Protoss exile to Shakuras and Kerrigan taking over the Swarm. Also, Artanis does make an appearance, Zeratul is on a self-imposed exile and mentions Raszagal in one of his acknowledgement lines, and both the Spartan Company and the Psi-Disruptor are related to the UED. And of course, there's Dr. Narud.

Blizzard didn't ignore Brood War; they just decided to focus on recapping SC1 first, i.e. the important stuff.

Say what you want about the disappearance of Raynor's death vow or even the sudden return of the Dominion's strength, but theres NO excuse to have Zeratul forget what a god-damn-freaking Hybrid is.


Yes, there is.

"Dark Origin" is a secret mission, so Blizzard has to take into account that not everybody knows about it. It's the same reason why I don't hold my breath for resurrected Stukov making an appearance in HotS. Besides, Zeratul's line regarding the Hybrid is kind of vague; he doesn't say he has never seen such a thing, he just acts surprised to see one. Remember: it has been 13 years since Brood War came out.

As for the Dominion, there's no "sudden return to strength". Why? Because it never got destroyed: the UED just blitzkrieged its way to Korhal IV in an attempt to behead the Dominion. When Kerrigan turned on Mengsk, all she did was destroying Duke's squadron: no way in hell is the puny force in "True Colors" supposed to be the entire Dominion that watched over a whole sector. Maybe after the Emperor's escape, contact was lost with the bulk of the Dominion forces and in the ensuing chaos they got isolated or decided to capitulate. You know, like what happened after Mengsk beheaded the Confederacy by taking out Tarsonis: the Confederate Squadrons joined the Sons of Korhal in order to bolster the Dominion forces.

And unless Mengsk's really stupid, he wouldn't have sent all his remaining forces to attack Kerrigan on Char Aleph: the odds really weren't in his favor this time, and had he really lost everything in that battle, he wouldn't have been sarcastically congratulating her while keeping his composure. For all we know, he had a rag-tag fleet assembled just so he wouldn't have to waste anymore of his forces on Kerrigan.

Hater: "Tychus' deal only worked because everyone around him had to act stupid."

Brathearon: "Ya? well... Starcraft - Episode One was filler. So HA"


No, that's not quite it. Here's how it usually goes:

Hater: "Tychus' deal only worked because everyone around him had to act stupid."

Me: "Kerrigan's plans in BW only worked because everyone around her had to act stupid."

Retloclive: "SHUT UP AND MOVE ON!"

:)
Edited by JohnnyZeWolf on 4/29/2012 6:01 AM PDT
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03/24/2012 09:50 AMPosted by BcTsarIvan
all i thought sc2 did for the overall feel of the game is make it seem more real


I still like the BroodWar better. i know the series hasn't finished yet, but that's how i feel about it.

The story was Darker, and more polished before, now it seems, to me at least, like it's riding on graphix alone
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04/28/2012 10:59 AMPosted by SCLegacy
The Xel'Naga created the Uraj and Khalis crystals, as well as empowering the protoss with khala and void, so that's why the temple channels the energies of the xel'naga. The Xel'Naga obviously created the temple. The word "dedicated" means "devoted to a task or purpose." The Xel'Naga created the temple to serve one of their tasks or purposes, not to be a vainglorious monument to themselves, so this nitpick is pretty frivolous.


Read the quote again: "the enormous structure is actually an ancient Xel'Naga temple, dedicated to the race that sired us all". Raszagal literally says that the temple was dedicated to the race that sired them: the Xel'Naga. It's not at all obvious that the Xel'Naga constructed the temple, nor is it ever stated outright. It is one of three (or more) possibilities that I elaborated in my previous post. The origin of the Xel'Naga Temple in Brood War may be a nitpick, but it was a response to the parallel draw between it and the Xel'Naga artifacts in WoL.

In my view, both are poor plot devices, but the WoL artifact, being a mobile death machine, is a more potent weapon, especially for any Terran faction. Blizzard will need to deal with this artifact in the subsequent expansions for the game world to hold any credibility (at the very least, they need to destroy it early on in HotS like the Psi Disruptor in BW). This contrasts with the temple on Shakuras, which is only plot relevant if a (Zerg?) faction attempts a prolonged invasion of Shakuras.

JohnnyZeWolf, it is a privelege to witness a troll such as yourself developing his mastery of the arts. But you haven't reached master troll status yet. Your moral_highground approach fell flat. You've had much better luck with your newfound dislike of all things Brood War. I think it is especially clever how you've shifted from arguing that WoL did not ignore parts of Brood War to expressing that Blizzard should have ignored Brood War more fully! A masterful move if I've ever seen one.
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Yes, there is.

"Dark Origin" is a secret mission, so Blizzard has to take into account that not everybody knows about it. It's the same reason why I don't hold my breath for resurrected Stukov making an appearance in HotS. Besides, Zeratul's line regarding the Hybrid is kind of vague; he doesn't say he has never seen such a thing, he just acts surprised to see one. Remember: it has been 13 years since Brood War came out.


well, dont forget that zeratul was able to identify the hybrid on the spot.

In my view, both are poor plot devices, but the WoL artifact, being a mobile death machine, is a more potent weapon, especially for any Terran faction. Blizzard will need to deal with this artifact in the subsequent expansions for the game world to hold any credibility (at the very least, they need to destroy it early on in HotS like the Psi Disruptor in BW). This contrasts with the temple on Shakuras, which is only plot relevant if a (Zerg?) faction attempts a prolonged invasion of Shakuras.


The lore outside of BW tells us that the xel'naga temple was created by the xel'naga. Also, the xel'naga artifact was actually a modern device by the xel'naga (compare the very first computer to a modern computer. MUCH smaller, much more powerful, can perform much more complicated tasks, and much easier to use!). It is also probably no accident that the dominion now has the artifact that will probably be used against you in HotS. It may also seem unsettling that Dr. Narud wanted you to use the artifact. Basically, what we did on char in WoL was what the dark voice wanted us to do.

Say what you want about the disappearance of Raynor's death vow or even the sudden return of the Dominion's strength (I know by now that your always going to use the bullshyt 4 year gap excuse), but theres NO excuse to have Zeratul forget what a god-damn-freaking Hybrid is.


There is no disappearance of raynor's death vow. We even get to see an alternate future where raynor fulfills his vow. Johnny addressed your other issues
Edited by Brathearon on 4/29/2012 7:59 AM PDT
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@ AkuChi

What's disappointing is seeing you insist on being increasingly scornful and condescending lately.

And I don't see how it is trolling to point out that Blizzard didn't ignore Brood War with Wings of Liberty while still expressing personal disappointment over such decision.

Seriously, what did I ever do to you? :/
Edited by JohnnyZeWolf on 4/29/2012 8:21 AM PDT
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04/29/2012 07:47 AMPosted by Brathearon
There is no disappearance of raynor's death vow. We even get to see an alternate future where raynor fulfills his vow.


Personally, I do believe Blizzard had it reworked into something more plausible given Raynor's personality and abilities. The story recap on Battle.net still mentions Raynor swearing revenge on Kerrigan, although it also says he swore revenge against Mengsk following New Gettysburg. I'm not convinced "In Utter Darkness" happens specifically because Raynor killed Kerrigan: that was merely Jimmy's assumption.
Edited by JohnnyZeWolf on 4/29/2012 8:20 AM PDT
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04/29/2012 08:17 AMPosted by JohnnyZeWolf
I'm not convinced "In Utter Darkness" happens specifically because Raynor killed Kerrigan: that was merely Jimmy's assumption.


Well, 2 things wrong with this. If he didnt plan on killing her, why did he assume he did it? He would be questioning who killed her since he would know he didnt do that. Also, zeratul specifically comes to raynor saying that it is him who will hold her life in his hands.

No Brathearon...Zeratul's doomsday vision has nothing to do with Raynor's death vow. It gives a reason to keep Kerrigan alive but it has, overall, nothing to do with the vow. Please try again.


he kills her, that is how the events in the vision happens.
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