Topic [Showcase]Eras Zombie Invasion [Official Thread #2]
Edited by Rovole on 4/1/12 4:02 AM (PDT)
You've outdone yourself, making zombies both more powerful yet less fun to play.
#.5 levels for zombies, completely idiotic idea. Breaks the economic and technologic flexibilty dynamic that previously existed for zombie players.
Zombuilders/flesh piles overseas, spawning from zombholes. Makes the walling nations, teal and green, virtually useless as soon as the zombies can swim while also giving the zombie players an unprecedented advantage in overpowering the americas. Zombie production buildings allow them to create far more, more powerful units than human players. Bad idea, also voiced here:
Other than that, the new changes introduced are welcome. Scout birds are sufficiently useful.
Where you tried to imitate the original map, and as your map became more like the original it became more fun. Now you're implementing changes that don't need to be, and harming the gameplay dynamic that made the original so fun to play. Things like levels/rewards that really just kill the balanced nature of a tactically focused map such as this. Really, leave that stuff in RPG/minigame maps.
THIS IS SOOOOOOOOOOOO IMPORTANT THIS ONE BELOW
At Tier 3 Zombies hit for to hard, and to fast when Frenzy goes in combo with DG's Attk speed and movement increase. For example, at lvl 30 when dg on his hero ALONE pops all buffs he hits for 5.6k every .25 secs over a course of 3 secs, best part is this is cleaved. Also, don't forget the zombies at this level to, because with charge they all get 1 hit and etc soooooo wall dies close to .35 secs after first being hit, meaning it wasn't repaired. This is meaning, A: remove Dg's hero for the time being B: remove that 1 skill or C: idk D:
Give Tier 1 Zombies a starter HP boost, because atm its very annoying how weak they are and how useless.
Browns hero in comparasin to other heroes just sucks terribly.
Give walls a 5kish hp boost based on tiering up.
Increase some things based on tiers. (heroes, uniques, etc.)
I'd say increase the repair rate on Repair Bots, because of how hard it is to get them, also reduce their build time to 30 secs.
Ya thats my feedback from 2 games xD
I am unsure about all the humans, but I know Turkey starts with 300g and would be nearly impossible to defend with only 100g.I think at this point it may be wise to focus changes on making the game easier to pickup for new players. As the map has grown in popularity the ratio of players who know what they're doing to those who don't has gotten worse. This has, in my opinion, resulted in far more zombie victories and far less fun experiences for everyone.
I think adding some tips especially for Russia on the starting screen would be beneficial. I also think a 5s pre-game pause at the start of the game, so that players can advise new players might help.
Another thing I'd like to see is the probability of random events shift in response to game changes, for examples capitals being destroyed, such that when the zombies are winning, the remaining humans get more positive random events, and when the humans are winning the zombies get more positive random events.
Yeah .5 was a suggestion that I received but turned out to not work as well as it sounded. I've removed it for the time being.
The Zomb hole/Zomb builders are going to stay though. It makes zomb holes a threat even if they do not spawn inside your base. It cost 1000 gold to train a builder from a hole so its a significantly risky investment. I expect competent players will send out a strike force to clean up, if they see a zomb hole spawn inside a underpopulated area.
Edited by Rovole on 4/1/12 9:20 PM (PDT)
But that really shouldn't be necesarry. What you're suggesting is that players should keep forces anywhere zombholes could possibly spawn, which early on requires rushing sailing techs, and is completely asanine. If you want zombholes to be a lasting threat even in depopulated areas, remove spawn timers from the spawned zombies so that they persist, its more functional and less imbalancing. The 1000 gold cost in an area with no risk at all(such as overseas) won't deter anyone by the time zombquake is available, and if the worm is killed mid-production the money is refunded anyways. Zombuilders allow for a virtually unlimited zombie prescence anywhere they are allowed to make flesh piles, and makes it far too easy for zombies to overpower the fixed-number spawns of the colonies.
In addition you sorta overdid night. Now its a bit too dark.
You removed the .5 teir requirements, but also the zombie-teir upgrades, which I rather enjoyed. It presented a strategic decison: Strengthen the current teir for less gold or save up for the next one?
Heroes don't seem to able to keep up damage wise with higher teirs. Zombie heroes are less durable and do less damage compared to higher-level zombs. I suggest that with a teir upgrade, the zombie heroes become stronger to match the new level, so that they don't become obsolete by level 4 zombies. Human heroes don't necesarrily need changes, by maxed zombie slayer upgrades they're virtually unkillable except by the most persistent of attack forces, even if their killing power is negligible.
Higher teir defenses. maybe sentry guns and mortars for t3/t4 and a missile turret for t5. Bunkers currently make for fine defenses at t4, so make the new towers available by t3. Sentry guns, of course, would be the arrow tower equivalent, but using gun tech. Mortar/howitzer would take the AOE role of mage towers. By tier 3 zombies, the old towers are rendered obsolete. This might be difficult to balance.
(militia) Barracks upgradable into their higher-teir equivalent, like in the original. Maybe something similar for stables/factory.
Edited by Smith on 4/1/12 11:01 PM (PDT)
Yeah starcraft 2 crashed on me, that game Rovole.
Now the duration on zombie units spawned from Zomb holes is a performance issue, they used to have no duration and it lagged the game, players wouldn't bother killing them off etc.. etc..
Now when I said balanced I usually mean close to balanced. Everything could probably use a few tweaks here and there, but unfortunately I can't tell unless i encounter these imbalances myself in game or, I receive constant feedback regarding said imbalances. Unfortunately I have little time to both play and work on the map so the only things I can usually do is add new stuff. However if it is posted here I will address it, I guarantee it.
Now as far as the Zombuilders from holes is concerned. I've played a couple of games and found them to be quite easy to deal with. When I see a hole pop in America, its now more of a concern, but its not an impossible thing to deal with.
what you're suggesting is that players should keep forces anywhere zombholes could possibly spawn, which early on requires rushing sailing techs, and is completely asanine.
Don't need to keep them everywhere zomb holes spawn. Just send them near the ping, its really not hard. Now perhaps the cost should be increased to say 2000, or tweaked in some other way, perhaps increase build time of death pits.
As I said before, games in alpha, sometimes patches will bring crazy unbalanced things, that take time to balance. I don't have the time to test everything against other players before I release it public, so I just release it and get the feedback from players. Doesn't mean I don't care.
Now above is a good post, provides criticism while also giving some suggestion. Most of which I will address in the next patch. Just to be clear, I really appreciate these posts on the forums, makes things much easier.
Edited by Demon on 4/2/12 6:29 PM (PDT)
Each update has just been making the zombies stronger and the humans weaker it needs to change. As far as suggestions go I feel the charge seems to be a bit unfair later in the game even when humans are maxed out on all wall and steel wall upgrades and have bots repairing the zombies tear through it like paper. The charge should maybe have less of an effect or not be as dramatic as it is right now. For humans arrow towers seem to be too strong and should have upgrades only fit for say tiers 1 and 2. They should then be replaced like in the WC3 version with mortar towers or something of that sort and have the cannon tech be the source of upgrading their attack for the later tiers. I'll try to think of some more specific improvements and things that can also be used from the WC3 version when I have time. Overall, the last update made things very unbalanced and the zombie builders spawning with the zombie holes is the one thing I feel with certainty did this, for now that's the one thing I recommend being removed asap.
Edited by Necromaster on 4/3/12 3:56 PM (PDT)
ok the super fort needs some air defense to deal with crows. Every game where I see the super fort gotten or get it myself, it gets murdered by gore crows before i can get the units i need to defend it.
Many games recently ave been screwed over by trolling teals or trolling greens. I am not sure how to fix this, except maybe perhaps prevent demolishing in the first ten minutes of the game, and prevent gates and walls from being attacked by the player controlling them for the same period of time. Really I know there is no realistic way to prevent this its just really annoying when teal destroys his own walls builds as many peasants as possible and then attacks zombies with the peasants. Trolling players are hard to work around but I feel like new players need to get some kind of protection against zombies and trolls need to have some way to be kicked before they can destroy the game.
I would agree decrease the number of attacks and attack speed of archer towers and instead massively ramp damage, as things stand archer towers in groups of more than 20 cause the game to lag like nothing else.
When you want to tier up the tier upgrade doesn't tell you what you don't have by highlighting missing techs as red. This frustrates many new players more than I can tell you as they keep upgrading tier one units as they can't figure out how to tier up.
All of the zombie hero's ultimate abilities are quite frankly boring. This is less of an issue and just more of a suggestion. Have them have abilities that mirror the powers of their capitols. Like browns hero could produce zombholes at level 30, violets would turn humans he kills to zombies at level 30 and dark greens hero could . . . cut trees and turn them into gold. I just feel like hero ultimate abilities should be more amazing than they are right now. Also teal and greens heros are very lack luster as well.
Spartans are produced to slowly to actually be a real threat as things stand. They would be a lot more useful if you doubled the cost of each and cut their build time in half, because as things stand the only way to make spartans in a timely fashion is to use sparta's ability. Because in 5 minutes you can only make 9 spartans, without the ability. However the problem is that spartans, once you have 80 or more of them, require tier three to be killed. In fact spartan rush backed up by pope can kill zombies if you can hold sparta from the rebels. Of course this requires a experienced green and purple. In fact the thing about this game as it stands is that it depends a little to much on which side knows what it is doing better.
Zombies don't have any negative random events, maybe have a vaccine that is created when the first human player reaches tier three kill all death pools currently built by the zombies, forcing them to rebuild, which at that point shouldn't be to big a deal, but it would slow them down a fair amount. I will currently go play some more, will give more feedback later. Overall the game is awesome, and I understand its an alpha its just . . . I am not a patient person. OH, one last very important thing. Some games go on for hours and hours. For games that last more than 1:45 I have a suggestion. In a mod of the regular eras zombie invasion that I played after the game lasted 1:45 aliens would come down and randomly destroy everything, basically leaving whoever could run from them the longest the winner. I think it would be really cool if you could implement something like this, so that I don't spend 3 hours in one game ever again. Though maybe make it 2 hours.
Wall of text, didn't read.
Edited by Necromaster on 4/3/12 3:51 PM (PDT)
while I partially agree that zombuilders from zombholes is over powered, i also think that if it costs 2500 it is (largely) fair, as early zombies will not have that amount of cash lying around.
Greenland is to easy to take and turn into an income pumping fortress. Please add a few "native Tribes" that will make greenland atleast take a few troops in order to conquer. Iceland as it stands has ramps to big and land to small to be worth anything, there is space for one town and a couple income buildings and that's it. It needs to either be moved a little to the right and largened or it needs to have smaller ramps.
Zombholes need to stop spawning under buildings, as several times I have had to destroy several of my income buildings in order to get at one. While I understand the problems with zombholes only appearing where there is space (a smart player will simply build so that zombholes cannot spawn in his borders), it is also really unfair that a zombhole can spawn in a place where I cannot reach it, without blowing up 12 income buildings.
Maxed t4 zombies with frenzy and charge cut through superfort like butter even with max wall upgrades and maximum steel. I am not sure whether or not this is intentional, but it is very annoying, when you have to watch superfort get rolled and you cannot even stop it. despite having the best possible tech. Though I can understand the zombies frustration if they can't get through with maxxed behemoths. I also liked the ability to upgrade my specific tier zombies, as like others have said it gave me more flexability in what i was going for.
I feel like it should be announced when zombies are 20 seconds away from t3 zombies as they are a major game changer, though I could see that becoming a problem, and probably would make it harder than it needs to be for the zombies.
In order to make green more new player friendly my suggestion is to add a second layer to the southern wall that green has between him and zombies. Lastly zombie heros should not get nearly as much experience as they do from zombies being killed. A planned controlled zombie "war" at t2 will result in super high level zombie heros screwing over the best laid plans.
Lastly it seems like every game I play either ends in humans getting air or zombies getting air. This is annoying and is starting to get old. Triple the cost and double build time of air for both humans and zombies, or cut their healths by 90% so that they can easily be killed by ground to air troops. Make ground warfare more viable on both sides, as it seems to me this is how the game should be played. Also boomers need to be more like banelings, they need to be faster explode upon contact with human things and do large AOE. However their health needs to be small and their build time very long. I am just really sick and tired of every single game i play ending in air killing defenseless ground things.
Just a suggestion add special abilities to the special zombies that can be created, make them more interesting, especially stalkers. No-one in any game I have played even bothers getting stalkers except as another step on the tech tree. Like give stalkers the ability to burrow and move while burrowed, that would actually make them useful, of course then you would need to give humans detection, around tier two possibly three so they don't open thier gate for 2 seconds and find that 50 burrowed stalkers were waiting right outside thier gate.
Overall those are some good suggestions, really appreciate that.
Now the next version will include 4 new types of t3 towers, some of which will be added to the Fort.
As far as Trolls are concerned, there's little i can say now but eventually there will be some anti-trolling features.
Zomb holes under buildings are a pain in the !@#. Perhaps they should destroy whatever building they spawn under, being a 'hole' after all, I'm unsure about this now.
I will also be adding soon, maybe not next patch but soon, at least 5-6 new types of zombies.
As far as aliens are concerned, that's already planned, but as a rare random event. The kind that happens once every 50 games.
I'll address more later but I'm working to get the next patch out.
Thanks again for the feedback.
Edited by Necromaster on 4/4/12 1:24 AM (PDT)
I think a better solution would be have a researchable tech that makes the zombholes smaller so they can fit more places. Have it so its not available to early but so that once its researched zombholes can pop up anywhere there is a 1 X 1 space open for them.
awesome i have several ideas for unlockable special events but they can wait, until you have nailed down important things, and key features. Also please make it so that obsolete towers can upgrade to newer ones, it just simply takes like 3 minutes or something.
(the dutch reclaiming land from the sea for germany if germany has a certain number of peasants at a given time (some# very high in order to make it a big risk), or if france declares war on all of europe and takes over atleast 4 other capitols by X time they get the hero napoloen and his elite guard or if france does not declare war on europe napoleon turns on france and attacks the capitol, if italy has destroyed X number of zombies with papal assasins/the pope the assasins get their blink cooldown reduced, when the required kill count will soon be reached zombies get something crazy, maybe zombified assasins with the blink ability (but no cloak))
Awesome I can't wait, would it be alright if i helped test some of these units? I played the game a lot in WC3 (both the original and a heavily modded version that had a crapton of unusual features), and i play your version a lot now.
Awesome, can't wait to hear it because I have begun resorting to always playing teal or green so things don't go wrong. Except when I am playing zombies in which case i usually crush one or the other before the third income cycle, because new people get stuck with these positions.
Also I played three games today one as teal the other two as green. The one as teal green was noob and fed the zombies, however we walled off constantinople and i took sparta. Whem the zombies used sneezers to break my walls I used spartans plus the popes healing ability (i didn't control the pope purple was just awesome and willing to help) to hold the zombies attention resources for 25 minutes until they were able to generate enough gold to get tier three, as they had to produce a constant stream of t2 zombies to hold my blessed spartans back (the pope would heal spartans and 25% of the time whenever a spartan died he came back and none of them became zombies, and after the first 11minutes of fighting, pope was level 30 so papal assasins started killing zombie heros whenever they showed up, it was an epic battle basically). One of the games as green I could have rolled zombies very early on (again with spartans) however other human players asked me not to after i began wrecking the zombies and even defeated their defense spawn. The final game where I was green, teal and red fed the zombies, however I was still able to use spartans to put down every special event that occured in europe, england, the middle east, and africa. In the end we lost because clever zombies built lots of pools and maxed out zombhole tech, zombholes which kept spawning under buildings, however for if they hadn't been getting a zombohle every 15 seconds I wouldv'e been able to defend europe long enough for everyone to tech to the point where they could defend themselves (atleast I think I could've, there were so many if's in that game). You may have noticed a reccurring theme, i win games with spartans. Which is kind of why I think they are to powerful, however at the same time, if it wasn't for the fact that I got 20 of them everytime I used spartas battlecry, they would be worthless. As things stand I don't even use spartas cry for its boost to units, I use it to make spartans faster. I like the idea of spartans, however I think they need to cost a bit more build a lot faster, and not generate from spartas cry. Because if you want a large number of spartans quickly in the begining you have to spend money on making more spartans rather than economy, or technology as they will build quickly and cost a lot, in order to build them continuosly you will have to spend more than you can. In other words you have to blow your end game, to make a lot quickly in the begining. Try increasing the price of each spartan 120% and cutting the build time by 85%. That way if a player want to make spartans they can do it in no time at all, it is just a much bigger investment, and in order to make them in threatening numbers will require a robust economy, which they will not have if they are greedy and try making them in the begining. My suggested numbers are a bit on the extreme side but you get my idea. Then again my the games that I play might revolve around spartans simply because I love using them, in fact I generally don't even build other units until tier three when I play green. My point is, as things stand spartans swing dangerously between very OP, and very UP, depending on whether or not you lose sparta to the revolution, if it is supposed to work like that then it is working as intended. Actually since spartas cry gives 20 spartans every 5 minutes and spartans have a build time of 35 seconds a player can make 29 spartans every 5 minutes, simply reduce the build time to 10 seconds and increase price 10-15% and have them no longer created by spartas cry. This way you can still build the same number of spartans in the same amount of time, you just have to pay for them all, rather than paying for 9 and getting twenty free, This way trying to make to many spartans will stifle your economy if you try to get them to quickly. Heck you might not even need to increase the price (though a small price increase I would recomend), if they feel to underpowered after any changes I will tell you right away. If they are to OP, you will hear so after I have won game game or five. Or if your working on other things feel free to finish those other things first. While I may be obssesed with spartans I don't think everyone is so obssesed.
First of all, I would like to say that this is a very fun map, even though some patches might bring slight imbalances, the fun still remains ;) (Btw I haven’t had much time to test out the new patch, so if some of my suggestions have already been created/changed, please excuse them.)
First Smith, you mentioned above that there is a possibility of increasing Zombuiders cost from a Zomba-Hole or increasing the death pit construction time. I really support increasing of the death pit construction time because it would give the player more time to react, as once the death pit is built, zombies could be pumped out in defense of it.
I am really excited to see the Nation Event come to all the countries, but I do have a suggestion about France’s and Spain’s event. When the Super Fortress is built, the units that come with it are in Britain’s control (as they should be) but the fortress itself does protect Quebec. I’ve been told that Quebec needs to stay standing for the fortress to be built, so France does, in a way, contribute to the fortress building. However once the fortress is built, France is just as safe as Britain is; all of Europe could be destroyed and France could technically rebuild its whole base in the fortress with Britain. My suggestion is that France should have a powerful nation event (as should all countries); however in relation to the other events, it should be slightly weaker (because if the fortress fails to be built, France would still have a chance to unlock their own event). Another concern of mine is Spain-mainly Mexico City. I usually play Spain, and once the fortress is built; the zombies attacking North America could A: Attack the fortress or B: Attack Central America (Mexico City). No matter what defenses I build, my settlement looks like an easier target compared to Britain’s fortress. IF Britain would allow it, I could send one Peasant to build a town in the fortress in case of Mexico falling, but it would be rather crammed and I would like Mexico City to have some security. I have no idea what Spain’s event should be, but I believe it should somehow strengthen the Spanish presence in North America.
Lastly, a small suggestion for the Firelord when his abilities to come out. I was thinking it would be cool if he had an ability that (Probably level 18, 24, or 30) scorched all hostile units around him in a certain radius. It could kill all units under a certain amount of hp, and all units above that amount would have 25% of their total life drained. I would enjoy a concept like that for one of his powers (as it gives him a ranged ability even though he is melee) however I wouldn’t mind if you wanted to tweak the life reduction to his enemies. Thanks! =D
First of all, I would like to say that this is a very fun map, even though some patches might bring slight imbalances, the fun still remains ;) (Btw I haven’t had much time to test out the new patch, so if some of my suggestions have already been created/changed, please excuse them.)Special events are planned for all countries, as well as hero abilities. The only thing mainly limiting special events is the map size. With Heart of the swarm, its gonna be 512x512 instead of 256x256. Some Special events arent too limited by map size, like, for example, Russia special, i think.
Edited by Necromaster on 4/4/12 10:52 AM (PDT)
spain's event should not be defense, that would be boring (not to mention I have no idea how it would work). They should find the city of eldorado (possibly by capturing it from powerful native american army) which would give gold income of 28 gold extractors, since spain has bonus wood income it would work out nicely. Spain isn't famous for engineering wonders around the world the way britain is, spain is famous for being rich, both in culture and in hundreds of tons of gold.
And I understand that, I was just hoping that whatever the event (and an increase and gold might be the answer idk) would in someway strengthen the Spanish presence in Central America, they don't have to have their own fortress, I'm just saying that once Britain gets the fortress it's obvious that the Spanish will be the first of the two to fall
Hey thanks for all the feedback.
Now I've already increased death pit build time in latest patch from 60-120.
As for Spain's Event I had planned for a large Aircraft carrier to be built by Spain. Which would be heavily defended and be a large presence on the map. Provide tactical sea and air support, and all around kick !@#.
As far as Spartans go, I can decrease build time a bit maybe like by 8-10 secs. and increase cost by 50%.