StarCraft® II

A debate on qualia

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And here I go on to debate the topic brought up by Culture.

So you see...... oh that's right. Staying up late, reading up on pages and pages and pages of material so I can gain a better understanding of something new and hopefully have a dialogue with others? What !? Scandalous! Don't I know ? I'm stupid. Retarded. See ? "My" kind of people are not supposed to be doing this are they ? I "have no place in science". I should know my place shouldn't I ? That's right.

So no. You don't get to read a robust argument about your topic which I took the time out of my day to read up on over a couple days, because, you know, that just the kind of insular, ignorant, irrational, stupid, uneducated, and well, retarded idiot I am.

And thank god! Geez, really, could you imagine, how unbearable, having to listen to someones point of view. I knnnnnow. Ugh! I'm sure everyone is for the better when stupid people like me, you know, "my" kind of people, wink wink, [insert inside joke], are "kept in their place", and keep our mouths shut. Hah! Who would ever take these people and their wacky ideas anyway seriously, it's not like anyone ever brothers to read anything they write anyway, we "know" their wrong, cause, duh, "they" are always wrong. Ugh! We are so much better of censoring "those people".

Aren't we ? Aren't we better of insulting and ridiculing people we don't agree with?

I'm off now to bang rocks together, cause, [insert lol], that's what "our" kind does. Right ?

You know, leave the "right" kind of people here to pontificate high up on their lofty airs. I guess leave this as a sticky warning to all the "wrong" "stupid" people makes sure they don't waste the "right" people's time here, you know, cause this is an exclusive, elite, members only "class" not open to the filthy public.
Edited by MODAX on 3/29/2012 6:58 AM PDT
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Yes. Because we should be cool with being discriminated, harassed, and insulted ?

Maybe?

Maybe I'm wrong here ? Perhaps ?

Yes, EXCUSE ME, for having zero tolerance, and yes, a quick fuse when it comes to being discriminated against and disparaged for simply expressing a point of view.

Next time, I'll be sure to shut up.

Quicker.

Sorry, massa.
Edited by MODAX on 3/29/2012 8:59 AM PDT
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modax stop beating the crap out of yourself, astrai stop encouraging him to beat the crap out of himself. Modax you have blown this whole thing way out of proportion, your the internet equivalent of hysterical right now. Calm your !@#$ down. Go watch gurren lagann (look it up on youtube) thats what I do when I feel down. To re-iterate you are not being harassed, you are not being discriminated against, you have been insulted once, that is all. If you let something so small get to you, how do you deal with being put down irl? We don't want you to shut up we want you to get on the couch in the corner and take deep breaths, and re-join us when you feel ready.
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If you let something so small get to you, how do you deal with being put down irl


With immediate force. Amazingly effective. Working as intended so far for me. /shrugs

I will not be a victim.

I don't get "down", ever, I get even, one way or another. My tenacity is boundless.

Nec once said;
Never give up, never back down


I don't quite think you know how that looks like IRL ;)

I first will settle this score. Will take time effort and likely some cash :( But I will settle this.

One thing at a time.
Edited by MODAX on 3/29/2012 9:12 AM PDT
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FYI

gurren lagann


Let us take a moment to take a tangential aside on this very serious topic.

Dude? Wait,.. you=highschool right?

Ehhh...ya... I guess. I can see that. It's good place I guess to pass the time as a youth. Fair enough.

I tired. It's "sell" is paper thin to me. I see it coming a mile away. I liked the animation though.

The gratuitousness boobs, shallow pandering to the teen ego, the dead horse of "over 9000 will power" meme, the tshunder girl, just is empty now. Oh, and that supremely, SUPREMELY annoying "little kid sidekick" thing,...arrggghhh! That kind of stuff really appealed to me years ago, but, you know, RL.

If I wanted a shallow boost of my ego and sex,... I...would...just,... buy... that.

I've all but given up on anime. It is so transparently neurotic, pandering, manipulative, repulsive ( can't blame them, look at what their cliente is), selfish, infantilizing garbage. It's 100% like coke (the powder kind); it just feeds the underlying neurosis that drives the addiction. But I mean, dont take it the wrong way. It's fine for younger crowd to be into this, no problem with that. I just hope your horizons expands as you develop a more subtle taste.

Meh, maybe it's a phase, you grow out of it.

Again, I dont do things " when I'm down" A. because I'm incapable of that B. even if I were, I have immediate effective real life remedies that are 1000% better.

Now if you REALLY want to talk anime;

Shigurui death wish death wish.

Slow. Violent. Morbid. Implacable. Unforgiving. Humanity crushing. Utterly and inescapably bleak. Zero "good" guys :)

^THAT is good anime. Only 13 episode though. :(

Close behind this, VHD: Bloodlust, black lagoon feels like a documentary of my old days, guess which character ;) Akira, aaaaahhh hellsing,.. I guess,... hellsing = the sort of stuff I like lite. I was pissed with the OVA for its lazy lazy lazy [edit: seriously blizz? no reference to The III Reich? hmm I guess, to many trolls] usurpation. So lazy and insulting. Japanesse really need to get over that lazy fallback easy insta-villain. It obfuscates and dilutes the real horror of their regime, and insults the intelligence of it's audience.
Edited by MODAX on 3/29/2012 9:54 AM PDT
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I don't quite think you know how that looks like IRL ;)

I first will settle this score.

actually I do and let me tell you, it doesn't look like this. It's not about settling the score, if you have a score to settle that means you have already lost and you think that by making the other person lose that you will be even. It doesn't work like that, I hope you know that. You have already given up and surrendered. You assume I am in high school because I like gurren lagann? Well you wouldn't be that far off, I took a year off after my senior year to travel the midwest and perform some community service with a program called American Conservation Experience (ACE). Currently I am a freshman in college. yes gurren lagann is over the top, almost stupifyingly so, but that is why it is so great.
Follow up question, high school students are some of the most miserable people on this godforsaken rock, what the heck makes you think they would enjoy gurren lagann?
03/29/2012 09:32 AMPosted by MODAX
Meh, maybe it's a phase, you grow out of it

Wrong I grew into it, but I don't need to tell you anymore of my life story than I already have.

03/29/2012 09:32 AMPosted by MODAX
I just hope your horizons expands as you develop a more subtle taste.
03/29/2012 09:32 AMPosted by MODAX
Slow. Violent. Morbid. Implacable. Unforgiving. Humanity crushing. Utterly and inescapably bleak. Zero "good" guys :)

sounds like your horizons are very broad and your taste very subtle. However I will try to find and watch this show now, I will probably find it awesome because my horizons are in fact very broad, because at one point I was pessimisstic and bleak like you. Out of curiosity did you enjoy death note? It is also one of my favorites right up there with gurren lagann.
03/29/2012 09:32 AMPosted by MODAX
Again, I dont do things " when I'm down" A. because I'm incapable of that B. even if I were, I have immediate effective real life remedies that are 1000% better.

if you are incapable of actions when you are down, then you must not get much done. Also nothing in life does that immediatley or effectively except for drugs, well ok they are not the only thing however they are the most easily accessible, and the first to come to mind.
Edited by Necromaster on 3/29/2012 10:34 AM PDT
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03/29/2012 09:32 AMPosted by MODAX
black lagoon


03/29/2012 09:32 AMPosted by MODAX
aaaaahhh hellsing

liked both of these
03/29/2012 09:32 AMPosted by MODAX
VHD: Bloodlust

don't know this one
is it related to bloodplus?
Edited by Necromaster on 3/29/2012 10:36 AM PDT
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Vampire D Bloodlust.

If you want to see shome mind blowing anime, serious check Shurguri. It will change your life. Also, Texnologize. Mother Fing' bleak. I guess your out of HS so you can handle this stuff so it's good.

Out of curiosity did you enjoy death note?


Sigh.

:/

Oh boy. Death note.

You know, for a while, I really, really, really tired. It had an intresting premise. I am a little out of the loop, being a lone wolf so I never got into this whole anti death note "cause it's comercial bla bla bla" bandwagon fad. I was really open to it. About EP07 just,... dissappointment started setting in.

Look, young guy, how do I phrase this, after awhile, you, you just "catch on" to the "sell". I work in Meida. I've worked in TV. I know how the buisness works on the dirty end of it.

You know, it just,... there comes this click, bang, clear as sky moment when you can see the "sell". The "angle". The focus group developed marketing gimmick. It just became painfully obviously exaclty what they were "selling", what little market they are trying to expolit, and I mean expolit in the negative sense. What they are selling is ego adult content.

So no, death note, no. Bad.Ya... hellsing, again,... ya good, I mean, for a young person ya... you know, good stuff kindof like Ghost in the Shell Stand Alone Complex or it's modern clone Gantz... but... how to put it... hmmm... just...it...just...just.... doesnt have that punch anymore you know like it used to.Right, its, its, ok.... I guess... It's just not that captivating to me anymore. Just too gratuitus. I mean, I've been there 1000 times already. I dont need to be teased with sex or violence for self serving gratification. I can go out and get the real deal. So it's just not shocking, or edgy, or appealing to me anymore.

Something really needs to operate at a more visceral, human, emotional level to really appeal to me.

Just to give you a sense I'm obstinate and obtuse enough to complain about adult content videos not having, you know, enough narrative structure. Just meh,...rolls eyes... I'm tired of the same ol same ol.

I know, look, I admit, I demand to much. Really. I'm honestly admitting it.

Yes, it is fine and normal for anyone to enjoy a simple adventure anime.

But, it just doesn't work out for me /shrugs

I mean also, more along the lines of more "normal" anime I think is Baccano ("cool" in Spanish ;) ) That is rad.

Also, my gf got me into this one "Nana", one of those uber uber girly type. Actually, some good writing.

Tatami Galaxy,... AWESOME! writing, simply spectacular, but it's wordage is DENSE and not appealing to most people, in addition to having very avant garde art.

Count of Monti Christo I thought I'd like, but was so disappointed with its derivative anime formula.

Planetas... very good, real life-ish drama. Probably mindbogglingly boring for a young kid.

Ahh thats about all I can think of of the top of my head.

down


I don't get "down". Period.

This is what I'm incapable of doing.

sounds like your horizons are very broad and your taste very subtle


Bleak is I believe the word you are looking for. Hey, I'm not suggesting its everyone's cup of tea, but... floats my boat.
Edited by MODAX on 3/29/2012 1:40 PM PDT
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you are a very cynical person, you need to go out and build some dang character. I am not sure if you realized this but I was being sarcastic before when I said

03/29/2012 10:12 AMPosted by Necromaster
sounds like your horizons are very broad and your taste very subtle.

from what I can tell you have experienced very little in life, and what little you have experienced has jaded you. Your horizons sound narrow, and your taste extremely particular. You are unwilling to settle for the good things in life, you want the perfect. You have inflated your sense of self to the point where you couldn't believe that you were simply one person you convinced yourself that you were made of billions of beings, and were the sum of a collective conciousness. You are seeing things and connections that aren't actually there, or at the very least not there in the way you think they are. Yes there is a main Idea behind every anime, every show. However you seem to think that means that the show is attempting to be sold to certain people types. You have it backwards, most shows, that are not reality tv, are created to simply tell a story, and people who like the story and the main ideas it conveys are drawn to the show. You are seeing darker designs and machinations behind everything, where in fact there is nothing but good intentions, or more often than not no goal at all. The shows are not made to compliment peoples egos, the people like the shows because they happen to compliment their ego's or reverberate their beliefs. You are mistaking the cause for the effect and vice versa, you see everything backwards, you are looking at a pyramid upside down and thinking "how does it balance?", then coming to absurd conclusions. Unfortunately like most cynics you are probably die-hard convinced that you are seeing the world the way it really is, no doubt you would call yourself a "realist" for seeing the world "the way it really is".

I don't get "down". Period.

This is what I'm incapable of doing.

I believe this now, you don't get down because it has been so long since you have been "up" you don't even know what it is like to be so.

Its very true that you shouldn't mix faith and logic and science. Faith has no place in logical arguments or science. However it does have a place in life. You need to believe in yourself, and the people around you. Faith has a place in life, because when you doubt yourself or the world or justice or any number of anythings that people doubt, you need to have faith that just because you have all this evidence to the contrary, things are still good, that its all just broken right now, but if you work hard enough you can fix it. Modax you strike me as someone who is faithless and also hopeless. If you are then I guess there isn't much I can help you with, you have to be able to help yourself before anyone else can help you. You let the small stuff get to you because you have never had anything big happen to you. One insult from one guy on the internet should not garner from you the reaction it has. But I will tell you this much, I don't believe you are actually hopeless, like i have said If i did I wouldn't have bothered responding after the first post. I have faith that everyone in the world is at least as good as I am and many of them are probably better than me at a lot of different things. Maybe your life as it stands is miserable, but if you are letting it get to you than you are making your self miserable. You are taking things personally, and responding in kind which is unnessacary and as I said before makes you look the fool. My point is: you are sweating the small stuff, and letting stupid things make you miserable. Stop. Stop worrying about people calling you "stupid", because all they mean when they say that is that your ideas or your actions are stupid. Everybody does stupid things, everybody makes mistakes, just correct your mistakes as best you can, learn from your mistakes and move on.

If you are so sure you are right than don't give up just because he was rude to you, prove him wrong.
Edited by Necromaster on 3/29/2012 3:08 PM PDT
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MODAX, I think you should really relax. Nobody personally attacked you. At times pet ideas and beliefs, even scientific hypothesis can become quite personal, especially if you really believe you are right and get high and mighty about it. Science can be rather humbling, I'm sorry you are so distressed. Even I have been wrong and completely crucified (intellectually) at times and let me tell you: it sucked.

If you'd like, we can talk more about the process of science, though I put a description to help you out in the "life after death" thread.
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from what I can tell you have experienced very little in life


me <--- chuckle :o :O :o

Thanks for the laugh ;)

You are seeing things and connections that aren't actually there


Yes kettle ?

Modax you strike me as someone who is faithless and also hopeless


Maybe.

Maybe.

Work in progress

However you seem to think that means that the show is attempting to be sold to certain people types.


I work in Meida. I've worked in TV. I know how the buisness works on the dirty end of it.


I make the kind of stuff you like seeing. I know a thing or two about the business.

You are seeing darker designs and machinations behind everything, where in fact there is nothing but good intentions


me <--- chuckle :o :O :o

Right. Let time be the judge of that amigo.

cynics


I don't think you understand what that word means, nor know about it's origins. It does not apply in the way you are trying to use it, but I understand what you mean by it.

If you are trying to criticize me I think you are looking for another term, more like pessimistic, which would be more accurate.

I believe this now, you don't get down because it has been so long since you have been "up" you don't even know what it is like to be so.


Now that I pay attention to. Good point.

but if you work hard enough you can fix it.


Bravo. Good for you kid. Keep that attitude. Dont change. :)

miserable


Actually quite the opposite. Ahh... you wont understand. Things, are... complicated, in a way you can't appreciate right now, but will one day.

reaction

You need to believe

justice


There is a reason, a very good one, and very self serving, for why I am such a stickler, "for the rules", and have an instantaneous fuse when it comes to people violating them.

Like I've said elsewhere, it's very easy to destroy, and so much work to create.

You know, and just as I have a capaity for reasoning I also have equal capacity to be lazy ! ;)

So when I'm working hard it's a drag for me to see people getting by on the side.

If you are so sure you are right


I am. I will have vindication. Soon enough. Patience.

Time is on MY side. ( whistles song to self ;) ) [edit; btw, "Fallen" with Denzil Whasington, good movie]

small stuff


Angry is fun ;_)
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03/29/2012 03:52 PMPosted by MODAX
Like I've said elsewhere, it's very easy to destroy, and so much work to create.

Things don't get destroyed easily unless people let them be destroyed, nothing can broken easily unless no one stops it from being broken. You let yourself be smashed.
I make the kind of stuff you like seeing. I know a thing or two about the business

wrong (probably) you make the kind of stuff I don't like seeing. You make the kind of stuff that makes people dumber, the kind of stuff that shows ideals and extreme cases and presents them as reality.
ou are seeing darker designs and machinations behind everything, where in fact there is nothing but good intentions, or more often than not no goal at all.


03/29/2012 03:52 PMPosted by MODAX
Yes kettle ?

Just because the connections aren't there doesn't mean that I can't see them as well, however more often than not there is no connection (though I will concede this is not always the case). Just because I can see the connections doesn't mean I think they exist. The level of intentionality you seem to think there is, is almost on the level of "everything the government says is a lie, we are stuck in the matrix". Maybe you have worked in the industry and planned certain shows for a target audience, ok so all that means is that they know certain types of people like certain shows. Does it mean something beyond that? Does it mean something other than that they have discovered the obvious, that common sense struck them? Frankly what you are saying is ridiculous because if companies actually had the level of intelligence you suggest they do they never would have bothered with shrek 4 after how poorly received shrek 3 was. They also would have stopped the spy kids long ago. Not to mention i do not see how knowing that certain people like certain things in a show would be helpful. Also the sex and violence is everywhere for the same reasons michael bay is still making movies, people are as things stand more un-educated than not, and thus enjoy sex and violence. Frankly I do not see how this has changed since shakespeare began writing. If you don't like all the sex and violence in a show either look past it and ignore it focus on the underlying idea (except in the rare case where there isn't one in which case why are you still watching), or learn to enjoy sex and violence I find one of those is very enjoyable.
The fact of the matter is some people are stupid and they mix faith into their lives where none belongs, they believe things to be true which are in fact false. Doesn't mean they are evil, they are simply confusing their emotions and logic, or making an honest mistake, or that they are truly stupid unable to see what is. The last case is rare and it is rarer still that the person cannot be taught, if they are willing to learn.
There are no rules except the ones we make for ourselves, there are only consequences for our actions.
Edited by Necromaster on 3/29/2012 4:57 PM PDT
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Hi Modax, thanks for making the thread we talked about, good title btw.
It's time for a pokemon battle (debate). I've half-starved my pokemon for weeks, and they are hungry.

Let's keep it clean, logical, and explain our thinking at every step along the path to a conclusion (I might ask for this, if I don't understand how you got from A to B). I appreciate you reading up on the 'Philosophical Zombie' concept.

*reads discussion do far*

...I came here for a juicy debate about Qualia.
I am a little disappointed, I'm taking you seriously as a worthy opponent...and you haven't got your dueling gear on yet. Pick up your pistol man! have at thee! I will not duel an unarmed man.

I'll let you take the first shot, let's have a fierce and friendly debate sir.
Edited by TheCulture on 3/29/2012 5:34 PM PDT
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*exits thread*
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what a train wreck.
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Are there any survivors?
this isn't a debate on Qualia, this is madness...
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Are there any survivors?
this isn't a debate on Qualia, this is madness...


have at thee!


hahahahah! awesome! long time didnt hear that.

You've earned the effort.

Honestly I did read up on considerable amount on your topic.

You know, it's not that "settled" of a premise.

It would be frankly honest for you to have included the substantial and serious criticism against your position instead of me finding it on my own.

Qualia the term is a very loaded argument in philosophy and has quite contentious fighters on both sides.

Out of respect for the depth of information, and my lack of understanding on the topic I've had to take it slow step by step.

When I provide a rebuttal I want it to be found on well reasoned argument and not just on a hunch.

I recommend you brush up on your material too, I will leave no stone unturned. This weekend I'll be able to post a through first salvo.
Edited by MODAX on 3/29/2012 7:13 PM PDT
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Out of respect for the depth of information, and my lack of understanding on the topic I've had to take it slow step by step.

When I provide a rebuttal I want it to be found on well reasoned argument and not just on a hunch.
He's cute, can we keep him?

PLEASE? :D
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You make the kind of stuff


Millions of people have seen.

Sigh. You are going to have to trust me on this one. There is nothing "by accident" in anything you see, hear, or read in popular entertainment.

I think we should move this to the MOVIE AND ENTERTAINMENT forum, if you don't mind, have to clear the space for me vs Culture.
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