StarCraft® II

Desert Strike, OP unit combinations

Why is this even a problem? I can destroy a Protoss in 1v1 or team. First things first, you can get 2 Vikings for every 1 Void Prism. You get 2 Tanks for 100 minerals more than 1 Colossus. Then I will grant you that Ghosts cost about 200 minerals more than a High Templar, the Ghosts will still rock the Protoss.

Think in the Zerg mindset. When going TvP you simply SWARM your opponent. Just your pure numbers will win out in the end. Especially in the end game Ghosts murder shields making Archons completely pointless. Immortals with no shields get rocked by your Mauraders. You will have AT LEAST twice their anti air.

My Terran build has a bio ball to start with proper support. 24 Tanks, 8 Ghosts, the rest of my money in Air Vikings. It is by far my most solid build. I play Random so I have a build for each race but Terran is by far the most stable. Terran doesn't even need to change their build hardly.

Against Zerg only sometimes get ONE set of Firebats. Against Protoss you will probably have to get about 4 Predators. Against Terran pure Mauraders. That is about the only change in the build. The Ghosts are only for Protoss or a Terran going a ton of cloaked units.
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"Against Terran pure Mauraders."

Why would you do such a thing!?

Marauders get countered hard by Ravens, not to mention Predators are absolutely valuable in how they force the enemy tanks to deploy early though as much as I hate it TvT is all about tank spam.
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I am just wondering here . . . I was playing Terrin V.S. a Zerg first round. i built 3 bunkers (6 marines) and the Zerg came at me with 16 speedlings killed off my marines. was okay with that. but this is the part i am having an issue with.

The speedlings 5 hit killed the Silo, and 4 hit killed the Silo monster. next two rounds the zerglings kill off the nexus cannons and 8 hit kill the Nexus.

Can someone please tell me how they can get zerglings to inflict that much damage?
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5 hit means that the zerglings HIT the silo X amount of times.
so when i said the zerglings 5 hit the silo that means you see this...

Nom (One single hit from a zergling) 1/5 the silo shields/hit points are gone.
Nom(One single hit from a zergling) 2/5 the shields/hit points are gone . . .
(etc etc here)
Nom 5/5 shields are gone and silo is dead.

Now when i say 4 hit the silo monster that means . . .
Nom 1/4 (Zerglings one hit 1/4 the hps are gone)
Nom 2/4 . . .
I really hope you get the idea here
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Maybe someone was hacking?

Did you save the replay.

Also the correct TvT flow chart is Firebats > Marines, Predators > Marines, Marauders > Marines, Marines = Marines, Marines > Marines and a Hellion > Marines and 2 Hellions > Marines and 3 Hellion > ... > Armor
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Why is this even a problem? I can destroy a Protoss in 1v1 or team. First things first, you can get 2 Vikings for every 1 Void Prism.

Think in the Zerg mindset. When going TvP you simply SWARM your opponent. Just your pure numbers will win out in the end. Especially in the end game Ghosts murder shields making Archons completely pointless. Immortals with no shields get rocked by your Mauraders. You will have AT LEAST twice their anti air.

My Terran build has a bio ball to start with proper support. 24 Tanks, 8 Ghosts, the rest of my money in Air Vikings. .


Who do you play. I love when terran makes vikings, they can't win. You can make infinite vikings but they will not kill my collossus. Fades and ht's destroy infinite vikings w/out collossus dying.

I think just a few games ago I seen like 15 vikings dissapear in 2 seconds. I just rolled right throught them like they didn't even exist.
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06/21/2012 12:20 AMPosted by hellsaura
the old DS: hunter killers would own immortals if they could only get a chance to fight them. reason being immortals only destroy armor, hunters are light units that destroy armor.


stop: this is not good logic.

Case in point: the old, old version of DS (version Squarely) where Hunter Killers produced 2 out of their buildings instead of 3, they were just awful. Yes, they were light units that dealt bonus damage to armored, but the reality is that they weren't cost-efficient against anything. Regular hydras tended to have better raw DPS against armored units than HKs did, and certainly tanked better.

That's not the case anymore in version turtle, but even now...

Immortals: kill HKs in 5 hits, almost 4.
HKs: kill Immortals in 20 hits

Which, given the cost gap makes HKs slightly cost efficient, but it's not exactly a blowout.

But in a real in-game situation, I really can't imagine making more than a couple HKs against toss. Toss has stuff like Archons and Zealot Outcasts that tend to absorb a lot of hits before you even get to the immortals, and both of them make HK damage a joke.
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Vikings are 9, Void Prisms are range 12.

I can tell you exactly how this battles plays out in sudden death. I've seen it happen way too often and it always ends in terran getting massacred in the air.

1)Battle begins and all short range air and ground units rush ahead and get slaughtered by the combination of air units and anti-air units firing from the ground. This is important because it gives time for all air units to move into range.

2)Vikings have a range of 9, Colossus also have a range of 9. Vikings are forced to move to your front lines to attack the Colossus.

3) Void Prisms begin attacking the Vikings. Because of how the AI works the Vikings will now try to attack the Void Prisms. This forces Vikings to move forward 3 more spaces. This will put them about halfway between your army and the Protoss army being that the Protoss army will generally always be separated from your army by 6 spaces because of their immortals.

4) Vikings are now going to likely be the closest units to the Protoss army by this point. Any Templar that reaches the front line that haven't wasted all of their energy yet will storm the Vikings. I'll admit that Templar are sort of a gamble to use since rarely is a fight just PvT and throwing in the Zerg or a Protoss on the other team can make Templar a bad idea, but even without Templar Protoss can still handily stomp Terran air.

Vikings are now only 3 spaces to the Protoss front line. This means that any Stalkers in the first 3 lines of the Protoss army can attack the vikings, but more importantly any Fade Initiates in the first 7 lines of the Protoss army (aka pretty much all of them) can also attack them.

5) From here the Vikings will likely kill all the Void Prisms, but the have already served their purpose and the damage has been done. The Vikings now have to kill all of the other teams Colossus while being attacked by the other teams ground forces. Assuming the Protoss didn't fail and built enough Fade Initiates it's only a matter of time.

If you throw in other races this is even worse since the other races ground to air are also attacking your vikings, but remember even if you exclude other races Templar become viable to use again and it only takes 2 Storms to destroy all of your vikings if they end up clumped together.


I have played many thousands of games and step 3 is where you fail. I mainly play 1v1 games so I have a pretty good understanding of all the matchups and how to manipulate the SD battlefield. The point is that HT are NOT reliable at taking out air because HT have many counters for all the races.

However let me explain why step 3 will not happen if I was the Terran army. This is due to Ravens. Ravens are so efficient at stopping Void Prisms that they might never be able to do a single point of damage during an SD 1v1 battle. If Void Prisms can not damage Vikings they will not get their attention and Vikings will then prioritize Colossi instead of the Void Prisms since they are closer.

BTW Vikings have 11 range not 9.

For 3v3 games it gets too complicated but I can tell you my most powerful combination that has never been defeated in a team game and never lost any SD battle. This is all after all 6 gas are taken in an epic game. The first 6 gas you just mainly get units to survive and serve as a backbone later.

The Protoss mostly just gets immortals and colossi and hardly any air at all. Never more than 12 Colossi however. Just get as many immortals as possible. The Terran player gets at least 12 banshee, 12 raven, and almost pure vikings after that. No more than 4 siege tanks or so. The Terran army will be providing the majority of the AA for all 3 players so you will build a TON of vikings. The Zerg player will be getting at least 9 swarm guardians and 12+ broodlords. The rest is corruptors and HK whichever has more priority. If enemy for example is going super heavy on air then more Corruptors. If more anti ground then more hydra or HK. You do not need HK right off the bat though. They are basically there to fill up space in between the immortals and serve as meat for the colossi and swarms.

Your melee line needs to be just barely fast and strong enough so that your air does not fly over his forces. It just needs to hold out long enough for broodlords to arrive to completely stop the templar. Your initial templar counter will be ravens and infestors. Ravens will fly forward and get stormed and infestors will neural parasite outcasts forcing templar to storm their own outcasts. Once those are down broodlords should take over protecting your air permanently from storms.

You do not deviate from this unless they do something really strange like build tons of banshee where the Terran could then build Thor for example.

The DS games I have played it is probably around 3000. Many of them against other dedicated DS players. Sufficiently experienced players should never ever have their Vikings threatened by units like HT. Vikings should not be exposed to other AA other than extreme range AA like fades or brutalisks. The main reason vikings are ever exposed to other AA was because they did not build the correct units such as high hp melee units or their front load damage is too low by not having enough siege assault units to allow your units to advance as well. Basically nothing should be getting under your vikings if you play correctly.
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07/13/2012 09:01 PMPosted by hellsaura
Basically nothing should be getting under your vikings if you play correctly.


99% of the time in any DS game the ground forces is what wins the match. This is the whole reason for SG's, Immortals, Colossus, Siege tanks. They rip up the ground units very fast. a wall of siege tanks can only be beaten by a simular wall of immortals. all the rest of the units might as well be air to ground so siege can not kill them. also the sole purpose of Anti Air units is mostly to protect your detection, blimp, overseer, observer... reason being its impossible to kill units you can not see. this is also why the mothership is usefull. if the other teams detection gets killed off then you have an entire army that can not be killed. talk about OP!!! Also i have seen it where a player masses so many vikings, corruptor, void prism that they win the air war with in 10seconds into final battle, how ever thier ground forces lose, and when that happens its game over..... Anti Air units should always be kept to a min. because it only takes away from your ground kill, which wins games.


Ground forces being the reason you win the match does not apply to Zerg as it is their air that tends to win the match due to their siege units all being flying. Swarms and Broods tend to be the last units to die so you definitely need enough AA to take them out. It is reversed for Zerg. You want just enough ground for Zerg to hold them in place while your bombers kill them.

However most of the time you want just enough flying AA to protect other units and make sure your colossi or swarms do not die before they can do their damage.
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AzureD, make a DS map already. Use the existing one as a template, make some small balance changes bug fixes and maybe a couple of new units to keep it interesting and you have a winner.
Edited by smashT on 7/17/2012 12:30 AM PDT
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I would need to have the map given to me because just ripping it out messes up the triggers. Making it from scratch would take too long for me.
Edited by AzureD on 7/17/2012 12:20 PM PDT
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07/07/2012 01:38 AMPosted by hellsaura
Against Terran pure Mauraders.


to that i tell you this:

firebat > preditor > marauder > firebat > preditor > marauder > firebat > preditor > marauder > firebat > preditor > marauder > firebat > preditor > marauder..

mass any 1 unit and its counterd with another... and thats pretty steady when its T vs T.


I'm pretty dubious about this inequality.

I'm fairly certain mass marauders just straight up beats mass predators, for instance (if you could build either of these units without marines). I would not be surprised if Marauder/Marine beats Predator/Marine too, but I'd want to test that.

And...if your opponent gets firebats, it's not as crazy as it sounds to get one pred; Firebats are AoE first, and anti-light second. Anything that distracts AoE like a solo high-HP melee target, is fairly handy against them.
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Add one Raven and that'll swing towards the Predators quickly.
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