eSports and Team Sports 2v2 / 3v3 / 4v4 fail

Posts: 72
How many solo sports are in the world? Tennis. Golf. Swimming. Track.

And those single person sports generate exponentially more interest than Team Based sports, obviously. I mean, Soccer (football), Football (American), Baseball, Basketball, Hockey... those sports don't generate ANY interest, right?

If my ill-advised attempt at e-sarcasm has lost you, what I'm trying to say is: Make Team Events as prevalent as 1v1's and the interest will be generated.

People, in general, prefer to watch team-based events. It's plain fact and is easily demonstrated by examining the number of individuals who enjoy team-based games over single player game.

I've heard and seen many arguments on the matter such as:
Balance issues, unbeatable strategies, the fact that APM/EPM, META, Macro, and Micro skills all come second to... TEAM WORK!

The thing is: If 1 or 2 Strategies prove to be "IMBA" or "OP" then it comes down to: "Which team does that strategy better?" Isn't that what TvT/PvP/or ZvZ is anyways? So... how is it any more imbalanced that it already is?

The fact is - Teamwork is much more difficult to accomplish than training yourself to click and hit Hot-Keys really fast.

Timing's have to by synchronized. Units must compliment each-other. Attacks coordinated.

Granted - The 1v1 is still the best way to determine the absolute "Best Players" in the world. Without a doubt. Grandmasters, as in chess, are Solo players. The undisputed best of the best.

However - Would "Magic Johnson" make the cut of the top 10 Best 1v1 Basketball players of all time? Probably not - But he is one of the top 10 of all time. His TEAMWORK skills made him one of the best (blah blah teamwork + aids jokes blah).

People like watching teams. People also enjoy watching solo events, and obviously enjoy playing them. But, as is the truth in the rest of the sports world:


So, may I please ask for some 2's, 3's, and/or 4's action in the "Professional Circuit"?

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Posts: 1,039
You can ask, but you're not likely to get much. Starcraft just doesn't translate very well to larger games, as the strategies that come out are unfun to watch.

Maybe you'd get some good stuff with 2v2's, but they require plenty of training for that specific matchup, and it's really not that different from a 1v1, so is it all that different?

Watch the GSTL too, it's got some teamwork involved
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Posts: 14
Teams would be stupid and way to hard to balance. Plus, everyone knows that everyone wants to just see one's.
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Posts: 1,990
I agree with the OP.

I love SC2 team games. I would much rather watch a high ranked 3v3 or 4v4 match over a solo match.

Like track and swimming; there are individual events and relay/team events.

Why cant these 'pro teams' who sponsor several individual players also put together a 3v3 or 4v4 team with those same players?
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Posts: 2
I'd like to see some pro team games, but how could they be cast? There's stuff going on all over the map, with multiple strategies in play, so it would be pretty much impossible to provide any meaningful commentary on it or focus on the relevant plays.
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Posts: 33
How would they be cast? The same way they should have been cast this entire time, by giving us the actual replays instead of some lame youtube clip.

Seriously though, I agree with the OP. Maybe Starcraft isn't balanced for huge team matchups. That's a legitimate argument. But playing 4v4 is a lot more fun because it's so chaotic and there's so many variables.
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Posts: 1,062
You can't balance team games.

The most I've ever heard of was back in Brood War when they had 2v2 for a time. There is too much crap in 3v3 and 4v4 and how do you commentate all that at once? If anything the deathball play will accelerate to mimic 4v4s on ladder. Then you have all kinds of gimmicky play just trying to luck out. Not as entertaining or easy to follow for newer players and even those with active knowledge of the game will get lost due to how much stuff is going on.

You really don't see the kind of skill you do with 1v1s especially because there is so much room to mess around. Starcraft isn't really designed around top tier team games. They might be entertaining to play, but for spectatorship not so much. I played a ton of 4v4 and it gets stale real fast and on top of that little to no cooperation. I prefer 1v1, but I am not opposed to seeing some test runs for team play.
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Posts: 2
Team Melee.

It was a game type back in the Brood War days.

Each team is still effectively 1 player (Red vs Blue).

But each color is controlled by every member of the team simultaneously just as the give control feature of today works.

Whats more is you started out with 2 workers of your chosen race plus 1 of each of the other 2 races (only 4 workers at start back then) which late game allowed you to build 3 200/200 armies and mix different racial abilities that would ordinarily not be seen in 1v1.

I've been wondering why Blizzard has not implemented this because it still keeps the balance that 1v1 is great for but allows teams to partake in that balance.

Whats more is that that the only advantage of having more players on a team is more eyes to monitor the battle field and more mice and keyboards to issue orders. So you could even go as far to handicap the games for some real interesting stuff without crippling one side.

That is to say 3 diamond level player could crush 1 pro player in a 3v1 of today simply because of the numbers advantage. But in the team melee scenario it has a chance to become a fair fight when you near triple the APM of the diamond team and cut their forces down to 1/3.

Long story short, I would really like to see the community start pressing for the Team Melee mode to be reintroduced to Starcraft and am a little disappointed with Blizzard that it has taken this long.
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Posts: 147
If you are really that passionate about this just start up a youtube channel about it and get some pro players involved. If you worked at it hard enough you could start it yourself. I'm not that passionate or I'd do it myself, just saying that instead of complaining about a lack of something in E-Sports, just go out and create what you want to see.

Obviously it would take a while to catch on, but if you proved there was interest i.e: 10s of thousands of views and likes, then pitched it to the major players in E-Sports, you could actually make this happen.
Edited by Sol on 9/17/2012 6:59 PM PDT
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Posts: 1
League of Legends, and Dota commentators manage a casting of team games where multiple fights are taking place all over the map. Just input. Not trying to "prove you wrong." The skills could be learned though, this would be an interesting addition to the world of esports though.
Edited by xSilencedRPG on 12/16/2012 10:07 AM PST
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Posts: 1,002
OP forgot to mention that his army isn't a homogenous lump of the same unit, it's a varied selection of a race's combatants, thus making this very unteamlike.

On a team you can see the player's each adding something to the melee, in 4s you can't see anyone.

Bad idea for starcraft2 because stuff doesn't translate well if you mix and match armies.
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Posts: 116
how about this? in 4v4, one person can control workers and build buildings only. 2nd person will have control of land attack units only. 3rd person will have control of air attack units only. and 4th person will have control of caster units only. they all will have to choose a race to play all four will be under that same race before game start. the peoples who control units can go to their respective building and build units. that should be fun right? lol
Edited by Brian on 12/29/2012 8:36 PM PST
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Posts: 32
Competitive team games in starcraft aren't going to be a reality.

There are far better team games already out there (cs, DotA, WoW, etc.)

All of the strategy/balancing is done for a 1v1 model of the game.
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Posts: 1,613
Team games are lame. I play them when I'm bored out of my mind.
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Posts: 3,103
i definitely agree that team games take another degree of difficulty: teamwork, and the several other possible strategies that can be deployed considering its now 4 players and not just 2.

I used to be well-known in wc3 to make jokes about how 4v4 rt took more skill than 1v1, i was mostly joking, but it is actually true, you do have to manage a lot, and even if the best players of sc2 in the world player 4v4 rt, their records in solo would be better than 4v4 rt.

That said, i believe we live in an individualist era, thus people will go towards single individuals. I Loathe 1v1 personally, i prefer interacting in teams much more.

As for teams sports, i think theyre popular just because its the way they are, theyre team games, you cant do a 1v1 in soccer and be interesting.

I would LOVE for team games to become popularized to the pro level, even if tis only 2v2.. 3v3 would be amazing to see, let alone 4v4. Sadly, the whole sc community is biased and stuborn, they will look down on this and say that 1v1 is the superior and etc. I see posts saying its too hard to balance teams.. yea right, everything can be balanced, and to be honest the more players you add, the more its about great coordination and execution than actual unit comp and builds.
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Posts: 797
It wouldnt make a whole lot of sense to cast out something like a 4v4. Too much going on to get a camera on everything.

2v2s... possibly
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Posts: 797
12/31/2012 06:39 PMPosted by Kalookakoo
Team games are lame. I play them when I'm bored out of my mind.

and make masters. wish 1v1 was as easy as that
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Posts: 3,103
Get people to work as hard in 2v2 as they do in 1v1.. and youll come to realize 2v2 will be much harder than 1v1, it's just a matter of shifting priorities.

Also, masters is meant to be top 3-4% of the ladder, if there are hundreds of teams that plays 5-10 games and never touch it again.. its normal that masters is easy to access.
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Posts: 229
Team game at Pro level would be very fun to watch....

Specifically communication via multi-prong attack, splitting their army, pooling resource...

Strat wise, One can go 3 rax reaper harass while the other goes Triple Hatchery, for example.

I think eSport should promote more for 2v2 play.

Oh man I would love to see MVP + Stephano vs Life + Parting...
Edited by FCPX on 1/6/2013 9:16 PM PST
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Posts: 157

This is exactly what they need to do to make SC2 more popular. one reason LoL is so popular is because its always 5v5, much more dynamic.
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