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Watching the finals between Morrow and Idra is just painful... Its just sad to see the unbalance-ness goes straight to a finals match that includes $$ rewards

For those who have not see it [Replays are here]:
http://www.sc2win.com/?s=+MorroW+vs+IdrA

Some Problems with the game here:
1) Zerg scouting is a problem, zerg shouldn't have to always sacrifice 100/0 just to scout another base (as in game 4)
2) zerg units are too weak early game against the reapers (reapers/hellion + marauder is just invincible for the zerg early game - muta cant even destroy half the army before the army destroys the expansion)
3) Zerg 1 base is not enough in high level play, but zerg do not have the tools to defend a 2nd base, reapers is the 2nd base killer as intended, but horribly unbalanced as shown
4) Basically, zerg needs to destroy the terran army (due to their mobility which is an irony for the zerg) before zerg can win as seen in the 2nd game, but how can the zerg win a terran with a good composition "ball" of units (basically morrow spent too much resources making ghost, but if he were to make MMM only would he have lost?; Actually, Idra has more units based on resource in the last battle before the end in the 2nd match, but still only come out even). How can zerg "surround" a terran that can change the landscrap as in game 3?

Now the problem can be seen here (where a supposedly 15 minute game turn to 48 min since the terran camp) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGQnnMvlAPQ&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll1lDxPpbHQ&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkUY5A9uPvU&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfBYCvEsnlQ&feature=channel

The above shows several problems:
1) Turrets are way too cheap and way too powerful, a mutalisk army (5 mutalisk-500/500, not 1 or 2) is supposed to be scared off by a 100/0 turret because scvs can repair it... same goes for the planetary fortress
2) scan is too powerful early game and the terran can just adapt to whatever is coming while camping out, actually zerg cant scout properly at such high level game without sacrificing 100/0 overlord
3) The terran "ball of destruction" destroys everything that the zerg has including ultralisks with a lower level of resource unit count, and the terran can just chill in his base until the zerg makes the first move even if things are not going well (thus leading to the llloooonnnnggg game with "Idra" with at least over 150 APM)
4) The reason there is not much air units for the zerg maybe due to the fact the vikings is just too cheap and too powerful for any zerg air unit to be made
5) Where is the defiler to break open terran? or the lurker to mass kill?

[Now, before anyone attacks, I am a random player holding off on league games until they fix this, just playing custom games right now]

Just a few thoughts, but I think these are the reason for the zerg UP and terran OP, there might be some more....

Thoughts?

We also face some issues with toss like early chrono zealot spam but to a lesser degree as terran which has hard counters for all our units.

Good post anyway

You don't understand. All of that is made up for with the fact that zerg doesn't have to build unit producing structures/can tech switch so easily.




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QQ Terrran is OP QQ

Really, reapers are ridiculous.

You don't understand. All of that is made up for with the fact that zerg doesn't have to build unit producing structures/can tech switch so easily.

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This argument is getting old.

If all your units are "c*ap", then no matter what you build or how adaptive you are, you are still going to lose, especially if your opponent is on par with you.

You are saying that spears (lings/roaches) and arrows (hydras/mutas) can defeat missiles(reapers/marauder with slow/tanks/thors)

Just watch Morrow vs Idra or youtube as above...

Reapers are crazy (either nerf them or give Zerg an early game answer to them), nerf marauders damage vs armored, everything else was Idra's own fault (building an Ultralisk cavern at this expo only to have it die within minutes, for example). Of course, I'm going to have some Zerg player argue that if the reaper harass wasn't so powerful problems like those wouldn't arise because of the insane micro require to fight a reaper rush off, and that's partially true, but that doesn't mean that Idra didn't make mistakes that caught him later on.

You don't understand. All of that is made up for with the fact that zerg doesn't have to build unit producing structures/can tech switch so easily.




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Our Drone production tying into that really makes early game ridiculously hard.
We can fill out an expo fast, but we'd have no army by comparison. The advantage only really shines if it lasts past mid game.

You are saying that spears (lings/roaches) and arrows (hydras/mutas) can defeat missiles(reapers/marauder with slow/tanks/thors)

No, that's what you're saying, and frankly, it doesn't make any sense.

The quote is "You don't understand. All of that is made up for with the fact that zerg doesn't have to build unit producing structures/can tech switch so easily."

How does it not make sense? Tanks trumps all the ground units except ultras

Just play zerg and see if you can go past a terran wall with just your "adaptive" units ...

watch the youtube video:

you go lings, there is a wall or hellions
you go muta, there are turrets
you go roaches, there is marauders
you go hydras, there are tanks

its not uncommon for a terran not to have some hellions/turrets/marauder/tanks in their base, so no matter how adaptive you are, the terran can just sit there and wait for an attack while they scan the zerg base from top to bottom

Idra had nowhere near a competent enough army to defend from the game 4 attack. He had 1 spine crawler and 30 zerglings vs Hellions and Marauders. Game 4 doesn't show imbalance except for the scouting issue.

1) Turrets are way too cheap and way too powerful, a mutalisk army (5 -500/500) is supposed to be scared off by a 100/0 turret because scvs can repair it... same goes for the planetary fortress
2) scan is too powerful early game and the terran can just adapt to whatever is coming while camping out, actually zerg cant scout properly at such high level game without sacrificing 100/0 overlord
3) The terran "ball of destruction" destroys everything that the zerg has including ultralisks with a lower level of resource unit count, and the terran can just chill in his base until the zerg makes the first move even if things are not going well (thus leading to the llloooonnnnggg game with "Idra" with at least over 150 APM)
4) The reason there is not much air units for the zerg maybe due to the fact the vikings is just too cheap and too powerful for any zerg air unit to be made
5) Where is the defiler to break open terran? or the lurker to mass kill?

1) Turrets counter air. that's what they're supposed to do. and the planetary fortress can't attack air. Plus, if they're using a planetary fortress then that means that they aren't using Orbital command
2) Just use changelings. Plus, even if you do have to sacrifice an overlord, 100 minerals is not nearly as bad as the 200-300 minerals that the terran loses because he's not using a mule
3) It's hard to counter it, but not impossible. a good mixture of roaches and hydras can defeat a bioball. if he has extra marines, get extra roaches. if he has extra marauders, get extra zerglings.
4) the mutalisk costs less minerals than the viking, and it also counters it.
5) stop bringing up units that were in sc1 that you think would balance the game. blizzard isn't stupid. they're not in the game for a reason

Idra had nowhere near a competent enough army to defend from the game 4 attack. He had 1 spine crawler and 30 zerglings vs Hellions and Marauders. Game 4 doesn't show imbalance except for the scouting issue.

Ya he might have screw up, but then the reaper thing is in every zerg player's mind, so I guess he was just surprised to not see any reapers...

The thing is scouting is so important in mid-high level play that it is an big issue for the zerg and those overlords cost minerals... you dont see those with the terran or the protoss as much

The problem is by the time you have Lair available to start doing overseer/changeling, you will already be fighting an uphill battle because Reaper/Helion are usually here before you get a chance to figure out what they are doing

Hell.. I've seen ppl even got to Thor by the time I got my overlord speed upgrade for scouting.

That basicallly sums up morrow's play.. Don't just watch him against idra, watch all the replays of him against Dimaga as well.. He uses exactly the same strat.. Reaper harass.. forces you to spend all your resources to defend against reaper harass.. and proceed to do whatever you are lacking (typically that turns into MMM).

It all comes down to this. In early game zerg cannot choose to fast tech and fast produce at the same time because we cannot upgrade to Lair and build Queen together. Terran can upgrade to orbital command and laydown factory at the same time. Protoss has chronoboost right at the start and they can lay down cybernetic core at anytime (150 mineral and no gas!).

Zerg cannot do any of that. Not to mention Spire takes 100 sec to build, that's the same build time as a hatchery. So terran has plenty of time to scout and see the spire and plenty of time to defend against that..

1) Turrets are way too cheap and way too powerful, a mutalisk army (5 -500/500) is supposed to be scared off by a 100/0 turret because scvs can repair it... same goes for the planetary fortress
2) scan is too powerful early game and the terran can just adapt to whatever is coming while camping out, actually zerg cant scout properly at such high level game without sacrificing 100/0 overlord
3) The terran "ball of destruction" destroys everything that the zerg has including ultralisks with a lower level of resource unit count, and the terran can just chill in his base until the zerg makes the first move even if things are not going well (thus leading to the llloooonnnnggg game with "Idra" with at least over 150 APM)
4) The reason there is not much air units for the zerg maybe due to the fact the vikings is just too cheap and too powerful for any zerg air unit to be made
5) Where is the defiler to break open terran? or the lurker to mass kill?

1) Turrets counter air. that's what they're supposed to do. and the planetary fortress can't attack air. Plus, if they're using a planetary fortress then that means that they aren't using Orbital command
2) Just use changelings. Plus, even if you do have to sacrifice an overlord, 100 minerals is not nearly as bad as the 200-300 minerals that the terran loses because he's not using a mule
3) It's hard to counter it, but not impossible. a good mixture of roaches and hydras can defeat a bioball. if he has extra marines, get extra roaches. if he has extra marauders, get extra zerglings.
4) the mutalisk costs less minerals than the viking, and it also counters it.
5) stop bringing up units that were in sc1 that you think would balance the game. blizzard isn't stupid. they're not in the game for a reason

You are describing what is on paper, in reality, its a whole different thing

I seriously doubt you have watch the youtube and the Morrow replays... and I dont want to bring this up, but you are copper player, so I will just say, in the high level world, whats on paper doesn't always work

and seriously for the points you make:
1) just watch the youtube replay
2) you think a changling where you need to micro or can die is better or on par with a scan that can scan anywhere for only an energy cost? Plus, if you saturate your mining, your mule is not getting minerals any faster than the scvs that are working there already, an overload "costs" a larva and 8 supply just to sacrifice it, AND sometimes it dies before you see anything
3) TERRAN: efforts to make a bioball: copper level; ZERG: efforts to counter a copper level bioball: gold level, efforts to counter a good bioball with micro: expert level with limited success as in Morrow replay...
4) You can defend your terran base with turrets and viking AT THE SAME TIME, if my muta cant attack the base, they are just useless. Just look at the Thor with the youtube replay.
5) Blizzard is not perfect, and we are just pointing out imbalance in the game as of right now. I was just pointing tools to fix those imbalances, or a way to do it, there might be a better way, but blizzard took like 10 patches to balance out sc1 for your info

Reapers are crazy (either nerf them or give Zerg an early game answer to them), nerf marauders damage vs armored, everything else was Idra's own fault (building an Ultralisk cavern at this expo only to have it die within minutes, for example). Of course, I'm going to have some Zerg player argue that if the reaper harass wasn't so powerful problems like those wouldn't arise because of the insane micro require to fight a reaper rush off, and that's partially true, but that doesn't mean that Idra didn't make mistakes that caught him later on.

I guess reapers is a problem for the zerg and the protoss... reapers and marauder literally dictates protoss build order on the cybernetics core

the 1.5 tier of terran is just too much for P or Z to handle with no hard counters

i agree, i love the game, and will play even with the imbal, but i just wish us zerg and our brothers protoss had some form of tier 1.5 that would deal with terran units. just something. also lower build time on our tech upgrades (lair, hive, spire, speed boosts). also out of the door, hellions run faster than my lings, roaches, banelings.. i dunno, im not idra, or a pro so my 2 cents wont be looked at to much on the forums. but something would be nice to help us out. (hell dont even nerf terran, let them keep their tools, just give us something.)

*Shakes Fist of RAGE*

STOP COMPLAINING AND PLAY THE GAME

*Shakes Fist of RAGE*

STOP COMPLAINING AND PLAY THE GAME

You don't play Zerg exclusively, we shake out rage fists at YOU.

Make Hellions cost 25 gas like roach is 25 gas. Reduce build time for spine crawlers, reduce time it takes them to uproot and re-plant. Queen can attack ground at range the way it does air?

*Shakes Fist of RAGE*

STOP COMPLAINING AND PLAY THE GAME

not playing the game right now, cause im dealing with son, making breakfast at the moment (break from the game) and i love reading on the forums.... so STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT PEOPLE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE IMBAL OF THE GAME!