StarCraft® II

Should DTs be buffed?

Hello all,

Recently I've been playing with DTs and I like them a lot. The only problem is that they are incredibly fragile and very easy to die against almost any enemy unit composition, especially against static defenses that detect any stealth unit. Between Terran Scan, Photon Cannons, and Zerg's numerous detection units, I am beginning to think DTs are utterly obsolete considering the cost in resources and supply. So here are my questions:

Should DTs be given a buff of some sort? Could there be a spell they could be given within reason to at least preserve their life? Could a kind of Blink be a potential candidate to allow their retreat when detected? What are the best ways to use DTs currently in SCII?
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DT is a gamble unit, if you lucky, you win, if you not, you lose.

so no, there are fine.
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Making them a gamble unit is terrible unit design.

DTs should be buffed so regardless of whether or not your opponent has detection they can be useful. Giving them the ability to merge into Archons isnt enough since Archons wont always be useful in HoTS since its promoting mech styles of play for Terran.
Edited by Khobai on 6/13/2012 12:02 PM PDT
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DT's are a harass unit they are designed to get in a do quick damage and then run. If its early in the game and you're doing a DT Rush that is a gamble as your army will be so small if the DT doesnt do horrible horrible damage you lose. However in the midgame DT's have alot of versitility most notably taking out expansions, getting cheap worker kills, and if lucky denying tech. They're not meant to be a front line fighter unless you put them in the mix with a huge army. I love keeping 4-6 DT's in the front in like a 100 supply army as if they have no detection its a huge plus.

Also Khobai if you see detection merge them into Archons then go a different tech path like HT or use the gas for something else. Specalist units are a part of the game.
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Making them a gamble unit is terrible unit design.

DTs should be buffed so regardless of whether or not your opponent has detection they can be useful. Giving them the ability to merge into Archons isnt enough since Archons wont always be useful in HoTS since its promoting mech styles of play for Terran.


I can see your argument however risk/reward is simply put a part of the game, and one that makes it fun, despite what people may think. It makes people try different things based on what they perceive to have a better risk/reward ratio, as well as allows for the possibility of comebacks through risky maneuvers. DTs are just a unit higher on the risk/reward scale. Simply buffing them so that they had the same reward and less risk would have serious balance implications, despite what you may think.

While there are other units like cloaked banshees and burrowed banelings that follow the same risk/reward scheme, but more importantly the whole game does. Playing "greedy," "cheesing," as well as other things are again based on people taking risks in hopes of reward. Even scouting is a risk/reward based endeavor, with the person hoping their SCV, scan, overlord, etc. will give them information (at a cost), however this investment will not always pay off, and so the person takes a calculated risk that it will, or that if they take enough good calculated risks throughout the game, enough will pay off to be worth it.

The game in many ways plays out more like poker than chess, which doesn't imply there is a lack of skill required, but that there definitely is an element of luck. However, the expression "you make your own luck" is often true in Starcraft, which is why some players appear to be "more lucky" than others, when in reality they are usually just taking the right risks.

There is definitely a point where it becomes too much, however. I would say this is the case in PvP currently, as it is far too "coinflip" based, with some builds just trumping others outright, and with there being a lack of ability to scout your opponents build before you have committed to a tech or build choice.
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DT's are a harass unit they are designed to get in a do quick damage and then run.


If DTs are meant to be harass unit then why dont they share any of the properties of other harass units? reapers, hellions, phoenixes, mutalisks, are harass units. DTs are not.

1) they have no ranged attack
2) they dont move faster than workers
3) theyre not available early game and lack the ability to fly like midgame harassment units.

The truth is DTs are not harass units in SC2. Theyre map control units that become worse zealots once your opponent has detection.

Turning them into harass units might be one option for buffing them. It would require DTs to get a speed increase among other things so workers cant simply run away from them. They would also probably need a hitpoint increase so detection doesnt render them obsolete.
Edited by Khobai on 6/13/2012 12:22 PM PDT
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Making them a gamble unit is terrible unit design.

I agree, especially at the cost of what the DTs are. DTs take time, supplies, and a good chunk of resources to have effective groups. At what it takes to bring out DTs, I don't think they should be a gamble unit.

However in the midgame DT's have alot of versitility most notably taking out expansions, getting cheap worker kills, and if lucky denying tech. They're not meant to be a front line fighter unless you put them in the mix with a huge army. I love keeping 4-6 DT's in the front in like a 100 supply army as if they have no detection its a huge plus.

I've been hearing about this a lot lately and it's pretty cool that players are using them in the intended fashion. However, they are also meant to be and in out quickly, so I what if their movement speed was increased to counter Scans and Detectors, even if it was an upgrade for 150/150.
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They've worked exactly as they have been in Brood War. They don't need a buff.
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They've worked exactly as they have been in Brood War. They don't need a buff.


Not true at all. In Brood War you could get Dark Templar out in 5-6 minutes. This changed their role significantly.
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I say DT's are always a good unit to use. They would be a gamble if they couldn't warp into Archons. They make a decent transition into Archons so you can always start with a DT check on your opponent and then go zarchon after.
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I really only question their durability in that once a Scan or Detector hits them they're in a very bad pinch. My biggest suggestion is an ability that allows them to retreat quickly before they're burned away. Maybe a recall-like ability that brings them back to the nearest Dark Shrines?
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06/13/2012 03:22 PMPosted by Jasiwel
I really only question their durability in that once a Scan or Detector hits them they're in a very bad pinch. My biggest suggestion is an ability that allows them to retreat quickly before they're burned away. Maybe a recall-like ability that brings them back to the nearest Dark Shrines?


You could just.. use the recall that's going to be readily available in HoTS.

As the game is now, DTs are perfectly fine. Smart builds don't take that big of a risk bringing them out. Most of the risk associated is in the gas investment of the Dark Shrine.
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It is not a gamble unit, it is a skill unit.
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06/13/2012 03:41 PMPosted by Sidewinder
I really only question their durability in that once a Scan or Detector hits them they're in a very bad pinch. My biggest suggestion is an ability that allows them to retreat quickly before they're burned away. Maybe a recall-like ability that brings them back to the nearest Dark Shrines?


You could just.. use the recall that's going to be readily available in HoTS.

As the game is now, DTs are perfectly fine. Smart builds don't take that big of a risk bringing them out. Most of the risk associated is in the gas investment of the Dark Shrine.

Yeah, I realize HotS is coming out soon. I suppose that really makes all of these propositions obsolete. Well at least one of the ideas I was hoping for with the DTs is coming to fruition! But Sidewinder, since you've worked on the DT Expand build and know it really well, what are some other great builds for the DT?
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DTs are fine. Even if you don't do much harass with them, simply having the threat of them being on the field can change the way a game is played. I like to drop a shrine in the midgame and harass enemy expansions with them. It's extremely annoying because many opponents don't expect you to make DTs past the 8 minute mark.
Edited by GinGer on 6/13/2012 5:54 PM PDT
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I agree, DTs are fine as they are, but they do seem very lackluster to me.
But what about something that would only occasionally save the life of your DT? Like a passive ability that makes it so that when a DT takes a shot that would normally kill it, it will survive with 1hp. Kind of like false swipe from pokemon. (Which is apparently the only analogy I can come up with right now.)

It would increase the durability of DTs by a very small amount, to the extent that it would frequently not make a difference. It's certainly not meta-game changing, but it adds some nice micro possibilities, particularly in combination with a warp prism.
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I would like to see DTs get a little buff, maybe reduction the shrine time? Keep in mind this won't effect PvP a ton since obs build time got decreased. Terran will be fine (Scans). Zerg, well I don't know. Short answer, yes I think DTs need a buff. Long answer : No. It will be really hard to balance.
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- StarCraft
06/13/2012 11:59 AMPosted by Khobai
Making them a gamble unit is terrible unit design.

Dark Templar are classics. They're one of the best designed units since Brood War introduced them.
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Personally i'd buff them, not only because of their frailty (dear god am i spelling that right?) But also because of the emotional let down. Picture it, you scout with an observer, everythings looking good, all they have is some spine crawlers, roaches and overlords. You move in with your dts and then suddenly as soon as you're smack dab in their base an overseer Moves to where your dts are....5 seconds later they're all dead. And you died to....you died a little inside.
Edited by VigorousSnow on 6/13/2012 8:58 PM PDT
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DTs basically require that your opponent is unconscious in order to deal damage.

Unlike other raiders, DTs do not have a secure escape option. They require melee and do not have very high speed to work with. After being spotted, they can't do much else but die.
Edited by Bobucles on 6/13/2012 9:42 PM PDT
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