StarCraft® II

[PvZ Build] 2-base Mothership Expand

11/09/2012 11:09 PMPosted by Phalanx
Nothing recently. Without watching the replay I'd be willing to bet your units and cannons were just late. The only games I've lost vs Hydras at all during that time was when I just didn't run the build like I am supposed to.


that probably was it.... am I supposed to have about 8 voidrays by the time i get my third?
Also now that I think of it, another question; should I fully wall off? I usually do just because I don't like having the little opening for some reason, but every game I destroy a piece of my wall for the expo... and maybe that slows me down a bit.


I fully wall.. you don't have to. It is significantly safer against 2-base all-ins. I don't have a problem knocking down my cyber core once my expansion is finished and then rebuilding it somewhere else. I always build my wall so I intentionally wall a probe out in order to expand later.

But yeah, this is one of those builds where the opener is totally dependent on how well you run it. At times where I run it flawlessly, I feel invincible.
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11/09/2012 10:58 PMPosted by OpTiKDziNE
thanks for the update Sidewinder , do you have any replays or do you stream for the current updated version of this ?


I usually play at the computer lab at school nowadays with my teammates. If I don't remember to save the replay and post it right away, it's hard to track down later. I'll try to remember to post more.
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My question is why aren't pro players going down this path in the metagame?

Everytime I watch a Protoss move out across the map in PvZ with Immortals and Sentries I shake my head in amazement. Relying on Sentry energy seems entirely dubious, especially when it runs out and he just floods dem lings.

I love builds like this because it caters to my playstyle (I hate all-ins).
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11/10/2012 12:27 PMPosted by Cazdog
My question is why aren't pro players going down this path in the metagame?
Might have to do with the passivity associated with the build. You don't get more active until practically lategame, and either pros will find that boring or it might be dangerous against REALLY top level Zergs like Leenock... I can't say.
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Got a pretty good replay today against a barcode.. probably some GM or fringe-GM smurf account. It's in the OP.
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I HATE THIS BUILD! ITS SO HARD TO BEAT! VOID RAYS KILLING OF MY STUFF AND QUEENS, MAN ITS TOUGH TO DEAL WITH AS ZERG. :)
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11/15/2012 10:06 AMPosted by ZCksuen
I HATE THIS BUILD! ITS SO HARD TO BEAT! VOID RAYS KILLING OF MY STUFF AND QUEENS, MAN ITS TOUGH TO DEAL WITH AS ZERG. :)


Yeah, I feel your pain (even though I've never played Zerg in SC2). I really wish Hydras weren't such terrible units and that Zerg anti-air weren't such a crapshoot overall.
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11/16/2012 07:14 AMPosted by EthanKairos
I really wish Hydras weren't such terrible units and that Zerg anti-air weren't such a crapshoot overall.
Zerg really aren't a "crapshoot"... They have ALL the tools they need to function well as a race even without an over-buffed up Infestor.

The problem is not the race, but the players.
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11/16/2012 07:50 AMPosted by Zamara
I really wish Hydras weren't such terrible units and that Zerg anti-air weren't such a crapshoot overall.
Zerg really aren't a "crapshoot"... They have ALL the tools they need to function well as a race even without an over-buffed up Infestor.

The problem is not the race, but the players.


I think you may have missed the part where I said "anti-air", Zamara. :P
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11/16/2012 07:50 AMPosted by Zamara
I really wish Hydras weren't such terrible units and that Zerg anti-air weren't such a crapshoot overall.
Zerg really aren't a "crapshoot"... They have ALL the tools they need to function well as a race even without an over-buffed up Infestor.

The problem is not the race, but the players.


They do have a reasonable point though.. Hydras are pretty !@#$ty without the type of speed they will be getting in HOTS. I can imagine a versatile late-game in HoTS actually involving micro besides clicking where %^-* needs to die, or where you need an army of marines.

But still, every race knows that the way you don't die to an ultimate army is to damage them heavily before they are out, or during the time they are out via multi-pronged attacks (considering powerful armies are slow).
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11/16/2012 08:10 AMPosted by EthanKairos
I think you may have missed the part where I said "anti-air", Zamara. :P
D'Oh!



They do have a reasonable point though.. Hydras are pretty !@#$ty without the type of speed they will be getting in HOTS. I can imagine a versatile late-game in HoTS actually involving micro besides clicking where %^-* needs to die, or where you need an army of marines.

But still, every race knows that the way you don't die to an ultimate army is to damage them heavily before they are out, or during the time they are out via multi-pronged attacks (considering powerful armies are slow).
They do, I completely misread ^_^;;;

And, I do agree with what you just said. Hydras are actually pretty good in HOTS. I just faced a Zerg who went straight for 3 base Hydra/Swarm Host followed by Viper + Hydra Speed, and even though I WAS late on my Storm transition, I was hard pressed to hold my own 3rd base using Tempests/5-6 Cannons and Blink Stalkers/Sentries (meanwhile). Hydras are pretty good in HOTS, and absolutely suck balls in WOL. I totally agree :D
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In Hots, this BO seems hazardous.
You have fats B3 hydra better like B3 full roach.
So ... the harass with Vr doesn't work well.
Need to be very aware about zerg tech.
And need to don't hswo your tech quite early (ie with a tempest harass or oracle harass)
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In Hots, this BO seems hazardous.
You have fats B3 hydra better like B3 full roach.
So ... the harass with Vr doesn't work well.
Need to be very aware about zerg tech.
And need to don't hswo your tech quite early (ie with a tempest harass or oracle harass)


Hydra speed is on Hive, and this build calls for no Void Ray harassment unless you have energy for Recall.
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What to do versus 3-base Spire builds that don't switch out of Mutalisks and instead support them with Corruptors? I feel like I can't ever get HTs and Storm out in time before my Mothership and/or majority of my Probes are dead because I've spent all my gas teching to Fleet Beacon, leaving me with double Stargate Phoenixes as the only option.
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11/27/2012 12:05 AMPosted by EthanKairos
What to do versus 3-base Spire builds that don't switch out of Mutalisks and instead support them with Corruptors? I feel like I can't ever get HTs and Storm out in time before my Mothership and/or majority of my Probes are dead because I've spent all my gas teching to Fleet Beacon, leaving me with double Stargate Phoenixes as the only option.


you can get hit by 3base spire before your mothership is done? o.O i often times start building up my gateway count before my 3rd is up (since i have so many extra minerals) so maybe you could do so and warp in stalkers if attacked?
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11/27/2012 12:05 AMPosted by EthanKairos
What to do versus 3-base Spire builds that don't switch out of Mutalisks and instead support them with Corruptors? I feel like I can't ever get HTs and Storm out in time before my Mothership and/or majority of my Probes are dead because I've spent all my gas teching to Fleet Beacon, leaving me with double Stargate Phoenixes as the only option.


Personally, I always tech directly to Storm and add a couple Cannons to my mineral lines when I scout 3-Base Spire. Storm/Archons + Cannons are a much better response to Spire than Phoenix in this situation because 1) you cannot know what air units he is going to make, and 2) his commitment to air units/tech will leave his ground army too weak to punish you for teching hard and investing in early Templar. Your objective in this phase of the game is to minimize the damage done by his air harassment. Protect your Probes from Mutalisks as best you can, and bait Corruptors into Cannons/Storm/Archons to prevent them from sniping your air units. You should take relatively small losses compared to the resources committed to air units by the Zerg player.

In general, a swift 3-base timing with Zealot/Archon will kill Zergs who go 3-base Spire against this build. If you feel you took too much damage or your army isn't strong enough to kill him, you can take a 4th instead (Zerg is in no position to contest it) and transition into Carrier/Archon/HT. You will still be in a great position, as Zerg has delayed not only his Hive tech but also his Infestors.
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11/27/2012 12:28 AMPosted by Phalanx
you can get hit by 3base spire before your mothership is done?


No, it's more like shortly after the Mothership comes out of the Nexus, which is typically when I only have four Void Rays (with two more on the way) out.

11/27/2012 12:47 AMPosted by MidKnight
In general, a swift 3-base timing with Zealot/Archon will kill Zergs who go 3-base Spire against this build.


This I agree with, though I can't help but feel paranoid about Roach switches should I decide to just walk my ground army over to his base.
Edited by EthanKairos on 11/27/2012 5:53 PM PST
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11/27/2012 05:53 PMPosted by EthanKairos
No, it's more like shortly after the Mothership comes out of the Nexus, which is typically when I only have four Void Rays (with two more on the way) out.


at this point you should have a lot more voidrays... i think i have anywhere form 6 to 8 by the time my mothership is up
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Hello.

I'm impressed by this thread, special thanks to the OP. Obviously I'm not a GM or even Diamond (or even Platinum) level Protoss player, so I have a question that does not appear to have a direct response.

What do you do against Zerg players that attempt the Stephano-style Roach max? I understand that Gold-level Zerg execution of this strategy is lacking, but I also have a hard time seeing / playing out a defense against it when running this build.

If more informed players could explain the steps I should be taking, I would be very grateful.
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Do you incorporate this sort of build in HotS Beta as well? If so, how do you use Tempests or get an early MsC?

I'm looking to try this sort of build on HotS.
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