StarCraft® II

[PvZ Build] 2-base Mothership Expand

Posts: 174
^ I'm not sure what you're saying. Because I think you're saying that you should base validity of a point on popularity.

And then I'm not only questioning your ability to troll, but also you're intelligence.

But it does make me laugh. :)
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Posts: 14,713
ninjasith, forget about him - he's trying to derail a perfectly constructive thread with his trolling. Don't encourage him.
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Posts: 174
01/12/2013 07:30 PMPosted by Zamara
ninjasith, forget about him - he's trying to derail a perfectly constructive thread with his trolling. Don't encourage him.


But you can't deny that it makes you chuckle. I can appreciate the trolling every once in awhile. haha.
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Posts: 15,723
It appears that snake and his posts have simply disappeared.

The invisible hand of Cloaken extends further than I thought.
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Posts: 1,135
believe and the upper power of some sort shall intervene!
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Posts: 674
Love this build. Zerg expect an Immortal sentry all-in. They however do not expect this. <3
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Posts: 27
Love this build. Zerg expect an Immortal sentry all-in. They however do not expect this. <3


I love it as well. Kudos to you Sidewinder for this awesome build. Every zerg i face seems to expect an immortal sentry all in, but I show up with voids and chargelot archon and roll them. The only thing I'm concerned about now is if this will work in Hots. I suspect it will not be exactly ran as it is now, but I think with some adjustments it will be viable still.

Thanks again for an awesome build!
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Posts: 14,713
Love this build. Zerg expect an Immortal sentry all-in. They however do not expect this. <3


I love it as well. Kudos to you Sidewinder for this awesome build. Every zerg i face seems to expect an immortal sentry all in, but I show up with voids and chargelot archon and roll them. The only thing I'm concerned about now is if this will work in Hots. I suspect it will not be exactly ran as it is now, but I think with some adjustments it will be viable still.

Thanks again for an awesome build!
It works, but requires you to do it on a map that favors skytoss. Big huge maps like Star Station, and maps with hard to hold 3rd bases such as Korhal City are BAD for this build. Also, Antiga LE is a pretty bad map too, but you get mixed results if you get cross spawns.

The way you would use this build in HOTS is to use VRs and MS Core to do SOME pressure then mass recall back. But you prioritize keeping your 3rd safe with VRs, chargelots and cannons (and upgrades), and after that, you need to use warpgates to create pathing walls, especially on maps like Cloud Kingdom, Darybreak, Newkirk City, etc, where you basically zone out armies and use Psi-Storm, VRs, Zealot/Archon and Photon Overcharge to keep your bases safe, and trade Zealots for more gas units, by using them to harass bases, and maybe using warp-prisms for that and start Tempest/Carrier production off 3-4 bases.

I tend to open a little differently and use Oracles heavily instead of pure VR, but I follow the above principles quite literally after that. The Good thing about Oracle harassment is that if Zerg tries to counter, he will not have enough units to make a dent, and if he does not, he is forced to make more spores and queens (and drones) than against a regular 2x Stargate build. If not, they are guaranteed to lose queens, drones (catastrophically) and extractors.

The downside to investing in Oracles is a Zerg who knows you're going Oracles and evenly distributes queens and spores, and you do insufficient damage. I had a debate with Sidewinder, and I decided to pay more attention to what exactly happens when you use Oracles and I found that they're not as efficient as I thought.

I still think you can incorporate 1-2 of them after a first round of Void Rays from freshly built Stargates, because they build really quickly and you can use their scouting abilities to see where the Zerg is teching to, and where his army is with Revelation. And afterwards, now that the Envision spell is on the Oracle, you can use them as detectors without needing a robo.

2 are good for harassing, 3 are ideal, 4+ are kinda "excessive" unless you're facing purely hydras and no infestors - surprisingly, Oracles decimate medium hydra numbers :P It's fun to go mass Oracle, but a reasonable use is getting 2-3 for harassment and punishing naked bases. They kill workers OH so fast, and can deal enough HP damage that can be combined with zealot attacks to kill hatcheries and bolt out when the zerg army arrives.

Other than that, you're using double stargate as a strong-arm strategy against a macro Zerg by conserving your gas units and later on replacing your mineral units with gas ones while taking additional bases, till you have a big ball of stargate units and a lot of archon/HT support on the ground.

It's so much fun to play this against Zerg, but can be frustrating if you make mistakes (because this build is a little unforgiving).
Also, it is a little tough against 2 base Swarm host all-ins, but you can survive that if you attack smartly, or use warp-prism/zealot counter-attacks to circumvent the attack completely.
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Posts: 1,135
It's nice in hots to get to skip the robo now... oracles getting detection again is good IMO. had a game vs some swarm hosts sieging up my 3rd, would have been able to hold it except my mouse went out and my opponnent wouldn't let me pause >> but that's neither here nor there :P
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Posts: 14,713
01/13/2013 02:14 PMPosted by Phalanx
It's nice in hots to get to skip the robo now... oracles getting detection again is good IMO. had a game vs some swarm hosts sieging up my 3rd, would have been able to hold it except my mouse went out and my opponnent wouldn't let me pause >> but that's neither here nor there :P
Yeah, Stargate detection is the best spot it can be at as an alternative to Robo tech. Also, I like it now that Oracles are not JUST harassment units, but can be used defensively against low marine numbers.
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Posts: 750
So... anyone having success with this build in HotS so far?
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Posts: 14,713
So... anyone having success with this build in HotS so far?
Yep :) The variant where you are using photon overcharge instead of mothership that is. The other modifications I made was to delay my 2nd Stargate for 3 additional gates, as that helps against roach busts better as the 2nd Stargate takes a little too long to be effective on time. Having 3 extra gates purely for defensive warp-ins seems safer, and my VR count does not auffer if I do not use the gates, enabling me to take my 3rd with around 4 VR out with 1 phoenix or 1 oracle out scouting. Photon overcharge + cannons + zealots + 4 VR is really atrong against roach hydra or speedling or hydraling. Infestor is rarely seen but even it is not a big deal. The main unit that can be a pain is the Swarm Host. But with careful use of storm, oracles, VR and well timed zealot counter attacks from proxy pylons and warp prism, you can defeat 2 base Swarm Host.

Otherwise, this build us even more solid in HoTS. Mutas? What mutas? :P
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Posts: 626
This build is awful tbqh
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Posts: 14,713
This build is awful tbqh
So are you, tbqh. What's your premise?
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Posts: 1,135
Mutas? What mutas? :P


actually from my experiences (only from Beta, my copy of HotS hasn't arrived yet T.T) mutas gave me the most trouble of all. I could never seem to scout mutas in time to make a good deal of phoenixes, the mutas could ravage my voidrays, and most of the time my 3rd would be too vulnerable to take... I much preferred fighting off swarmhosts, since oracles can detect (making robo unnecessary) and the voidrays could fly over locusts ez and kill them off.

PS to Goods, this build is out of date if you're thinking of that comment in terms of HotS, but the basic skeleton can be applied and still be extremely potent.
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Posts: 14,713
03/18/2013 01:26 AMPosted by Phalanx
I could never seem to scout mutas in time to make a good deal of phoenixes,
Are you keeping that first Phoenix/oracle alive?

That is the key to scouting, on top of other cues like mass speedlings and mass spines = gas being spent on something expensive like Mutas or infestors, and since Infestors are kinda defunct as an army unit (but not as a support unit) in HOTS, Mutas are the logical conclusion, and it is not a bad idea to drop a fleet beacon after you pumped out 4 Phoenixes, and use minerals to cannon every single base and take a 3rd relatively quickly, defending it with VR/Cannon/Phoenix + a few zealots. Since your +1 air should be done by the time mutas hit, and you should be at about 6-8 Phoenixes by then, you should not have any trouble handling them with some micro, even before APC range is done.

PS:

I should mention that if you do not see a roach warren and Hydra den as well, it usually means muta even if you do not see the spire. If you see infestation pit, you should immediately think swarm hosts first, and go full on VR off 2 stargates, and add 2 Oracles progressively, and tech straight to HT + 1 Robo for prism play (the best way to damage a Zerg going swarm hosts).
Edited by Zamara on 3/18/2013 6:20 AM PDT
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Posts: 355
I'm not sure if I'm doing it wrong, but I've basically reverted back to the WoL variant of this build with a Mothership to cloak the third. I've tried a variety of things, but it just seems that the Zerg player can just crush through my Zealot/Void Ray early game composition, usually with Roach/Hydra.

Even when I see Hydras and have gone double Robo Colossus, he just has so many units I get stomped on.

Hence, I've gone back to the old build. I get 4 Phoenix to pick off some Queens and do some active scouting, then it's into double Stargate VR with Templar tech. I get a Robo for observers and a Warp Prism or two, and try to keep 15-20 supply free for Chargelot warp ins at expansions.

How are you guys getting to the Skytoss army of death versus Zerg?
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Posts: 292
This was a shameless rip off of sidewinders build, anyone who who can't see that hasnt been on this forum in WoL days. Why is this thread still active?
Edited by Shmo on 3/30/2013 10:27 PM PDT
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