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[quote]So yes, both Phantoms can win, they do not have to kill each other.
Yo Infernal I did a bunch of games last night with friends under the assumption that the Phantoms were also against eachother. I don't remember what you have on the load screen description but I think you should definitly have it clarify that Phantoms can win the game together and/or all slayer/paladins have to be dead for them to win.
Awesome map Infernal!
Giving the phantoms extra tools for deception would be great. I really like the being able to turn off someone's allied vision for a short duration... it'll hurt slayers'/pallies' trust of each other, while at the same time allowing the real phantoms to take off vision and have a chance at convincing everyone else it's not them.
Allowing ppl to opt out of being pally or phantom would also help things. Wouldn't eliminate slayers leaving early, but if ppl who want to be slayers get those spots, more spots would be available for phantoms and pallies.
Another suggestion, add a separate map for vision off. Personally, I have no interest in vision being off, much more fun being able to see everyone and try to guess what they are up to or catch them if they use too many resources/supply. But I do understand that ppl who like to use stealth units would rather have no vision, but I've personally never even seen one where ppl voted blind.
Same goes for Phantom mode vs Good vs Evil. I'm disappointed any time phantom mode gets selected... just find it more interesting when there's two phantoms and pallies mixed in (plus it's nice to have the 50/50 chance of being something special instead of 12.5%)... but that could get to be too many different maps for basically the same game.
I'm not sure how versatile the stat tracking system is, but it could possibly be used to discourage slayers leaving early... just track how many times they leave early and make them stay as slayer for that many games before they can even get pally/phantom.
Also, when ppl use -whatami before the game starts, have it respond that they aren't anything yet. One time my phantom ally left because he checked right before the vote ended and left as it started. Since then, I (and others) have let ppl know that their role could change once it starts, but this is an easy fix :).
Anyways, hopefully this post doesn't come off as ungrateful or anything... the most significant thing I've said here is the first line :).
Edit: wanted to do a separate strategy post, but looks like Blizz has double post prevention, so here it is:
Here's a bit of strategy that I've come up with so far, just for what deception is wise and what is unwise.
Everyone: Don't pretend to be the phantom. Even joking, it just kills ppl's trust for you, so that they'll gang up on you at worst, or sit back as the real phantoms take you out at best, as coming to your defense could be a sign of being your phantom ally.
Slayers: Should never pretend to be something else. If you say you are a pally, then when the real pallies speak up, they'll know someone is lying and you'll get killed or they will. If they go after you last, all three of you will be.
Pallies: At some point in the game, you should say what you are. Only reason to wait is to encourage phantoms to claim pally. If people notice your extra resources, tell the truth. It will make you a potential target if three or four ppl do claim to be pally, but it gives your side the edge, because then the slayers know for sure it's one of three or two of four. If only two ppl claim pally, then the slayers should trust them fully, and anyone who suggests the pallies as phantoms is likely a phantom themself (or a slayer that doesn't understand, or a pally that held back... if you do this, you gotta say that you're a pally so ppl know that one of the others is lying).
Phantoms: You need to react to how the others are playing. If both pallies speak up, one of the phantoms should also pretend to be pally, and do your best to get the other two killed first. If pallies stay hidden, then you can either claim to be a pally and try building trust/taking a leadership role, or pretend to be a slayer and try to spot the pallies, point out their extra resources, and get them killed. People get suspicious of large fleets or tons of production, so take advantage of that, while at the same time avoiding that suspicion. Don't be too vocal or aggressive... don't drag them into killing each other, guide them, or if they are happy enough to pick their own targets, let them do that, as long as they are picking the right ones (from your perspective). If they target you early, don't fight back. You are at their mercy and they might kill you, but if you reveal yourself too soon, they'll kill you anyways, and the other phantom might reveal himself defending you.
A great way to build trust is to defend someone who gets attacked early without much consensus. That player will have a harder time turning on you, and if you get attacked, you might be able to rely on them to keep you alive. I've seen many games where one player gets targeted for elimination, but stays in the game behind someone else's defenses, and instead of sticking with that decision, the other players pick someone else to eliminate.
If you turn off vision, whatever you are, expect to get ganged up on fast. Even though I've never seen a phantom do this other than a noob or two, it kills trust. People might even still see you as a slayer... but as a slayer who cannot be trusted. Or they'll see you as a noob phantom and figure easy kill... and then laugh at you when they kill slayer or pally. As I've said, I've never seen phantom turn off vision... but I've also never felt bad when it says slayer defeated when they die. It could change if it starts happening more often, but it's rare enough right now that it might as well be a big target on your head.
If you know who the phantom is by process of elimination (as in three ppl said pally, you killed a pally, and you are a pally, obviously it's the other guy saying pally), do your best to weaken them. The other players won't be able to know who it is other than it's one of you. Smart slayers will weaken your base while you weaken the phantom, smarter will leave you with the ability to recover should you eliminate the other guy and phantom pop up. Watch for the other phantom to act, though.
Last bit of advice, if you are being attacked, either fight it off or counter at someone else's base. A number of games saw the pallies wiped out by only the phantoms attacking them while slayers sat back, and pallies didn't defend themselves, just saying "I'm a pally, you'll see." Yeah, the phantoms are counting on it! :P
Edited by Orlphar on 9/24/2010 1:24 PM PDT
I like that, disable extra resources as a cost of any special phantom abilities...
How about, phantoms can disable allied vision and set themselves back 10 or 20 minutes of resources/supply per player, and pallies can cancel that out on themselves (and see everyone that wants them to see them) and halve their resource gain. It would add a layer of depth to the game... a player goes dark; is it a phantom about to attack? Or a slayer about to be attacked? Or a diversion? It would give the pallies a more defining role, and give phantoms another tool of deception and reason to risk pretending to be pally, so they can confuse information coming from pallies watching what others can't see.
How did this guy know I was the phantom? He knew without even watching me within a few seconds of the game starting...
terran would own on an no air map
How did this guy know I was the phantom? He knew without even watching me within a few seconds of the game starting...
Its true. if no air mode and it went no air id get 14 siege tanks and alot of Marines and marauders then GG cause no army rlly counters that its funny that immortals counter siege tanks but even immortals can get countered by more then 10 siege tanks cause of splash :P
Hey Infernal, a suggestion for your next update:
In the loading screen, can you please put an explanation box that informs people of what they're going to vote for?
Even by now, either a lot of people don't know what the modes are or just want it their way. I'm inclined to believe the latter but explaining what Limited, Unlimited resources, Blind, Color Blind etc before the voting begins.
I understand you have 30 secs to view this but I doubt a lot of people take the time to read that and just hit vote/skip asap
I was reading through all the suggestions offered and while I dislike some and others I like...i believe that IF you plan to consider all of these suggestions
Perhaps you can add new game modes.
Like No Air, No Vision, Quick Upgrades for phantoms or the button with the special set of powers or both of them together. A 4v4 Paladin vs Phantom (might be the new IN)
Powers for the phantom could include decreased build time, once the phantom is caught, it's hard to counter 3-4 people attacking you at once.
Maybe Depending on a Phantom to Good guy(slayer/paladin) ratio will vary their power.
Suggestion: Find a way that we can talk to the other Phantom once we are revealed to each other. Having to unally everyone and risk someone going into our base or one of our units attacking another player is at a huge disadvantage.
A possible idea:
Since Phantoms are only getting stronger over time their powers start to increase. They begin with additional resources, followed by increased food supply, finally into discovering who's the other phantom.
So if by then, the game is still dragging on, then if players take too long to find out who the phantom is, make it so the phantoms reach a state of invincibility...not invincible units but rather too powerful to defeat..this is where you can implement natural disasters??
I mean a game that reaches 2hours? or even 1hr 30-40mins is topping it. Make that the final minute where players are pressured to make good judgment or just quick decisions
Edited by Vixho on 9/24/2010 9:05 PM PDT
God I love this game. Both me and the other phantom convinced everyone we were slayers. In fact the slayers killed off both pallys and then the slayers killed off eachother. We (the phantoms) won with just drones. There was like 2 buildings left on each of the slayers. It was awesome.
Denial, Denial, Denial. All the way. Even if u have 1 building left. Say you are not. Because it happens quite a bit where someone decided it looks bad if they kill a pally. So they stop attacking you or slayers will help you.
Also guys, 9 hatcheries is not a lot. Remember the days of SC1 where ppl had 20? Tired of ppl being like "OMG 8 hatcheries, he must be phantom" When I am a %*@@ing slayer.
Infernal Can you add a couple units into the game? Or rather unlock them?
Scourge, Lurkers, Defilers for Zerg
Firebats, Medics, Science vessels for Terran
Arbiter(mothrship anyway), Dark Templar United Form or w/e they had that was good
O i know, The battery building that restores their energy!
hey infernal, i think u should nerf void rays a little bit. Theyre a bit too strong when massed. In regular 1v1 games, protoss players wouldnt just be ecoing up and teching up to voids like that w/o making a defense and they could get beat before they even get to that tech tier, but they wouldn't have to worry about things like that as much on phantom. They aren't meant to be massed like that and that fast
Edited by JudgeHat on 9/25/2010 9:22 AM PDT
Interesting game I played yesterday:
Whenever I play as Pally, and sometimes Slayer, I mass AA. I usually always play Terran. Why? Because the Phantom usually comes with a giant Air Army at me. Ok, onto my game:
At the start of the game, everyone started accusing everyone really fast of who was phantom. There were 2 people that everyone had thought to be Phantom, yellow, and teal. That was 50% correct. Yellow was a phantom, teal was not.
We took our armies over to yellow, but he had massed BC’s, and I mean TONS of them. Blue being the other phantom, faked being pally, and helped us kill off the other phantom. (Not always smart, but we didn’t think he was phantom until it was to late) He helped us kill of red, the other pally, but we thought he was the other phantom. Then something strange happened. Blue protected Red. We had no idea why. After that, we started accusing who was the last phantom. We didn’t know who, until Blue unallied me and purple (the last 2 alive). Purple and I went to war with him. Purple was Slayer, I was a Pally. At first, I used BC’s and he used VR’s. We found this to fail, REALLY badly. Why? Because he had a HUGE army of Carriers. We didn’t expect him to build them so fast, he completely massed them, and maxed out his supplies with them.
That’s why I went, uh oh, I massed AA at the start, but I’m going to need more. I had 20k minerals, and I wasted all of it on AA. I spammed AA in my base, and outwards toward the 2 expansions on the side of me. He came over with his Carrier army. He didn’t realize I had all that AA. I took down half of his Carriers, while he took out about ½ of my AA on one expansion. He retreated. This was our chance! I told purple that we should attack now! I would go for his Carriers because I had a massive Viking Army, and he would go around back and get his buildings making his Carriers. We attacked, little did I realize, he had spawned so many more Carriers in that time, because he had so many buildings. He wiped out my Vikings with no problem, and then took our Purple’s army.
Then blue attacked purples base. I knew I wouldn’t be able to fight him off alone. So I sent all my ground guys, ALL of them and attacked his base. This provided enough time for blue to retreat, kill all my guys, and for purple to build defense. The other good thing to this was, I now had more supplies for more Vikings.
I had 12 Starports, all with reactors, making Vikings. Purple and I attacked 2 more times, with more VR’s and Vikings. Both times we lost. Then we say, “Phantom grows stronger. Supplies: 360”. NOT what we wanted to see. We attacked again. This time purple managed to destroy buildings, and I knocked a few carriers out, focusing all my Vikings on 1 carrier at a time.
We did this 3 more times, and ended up winning.
Super strong Phantom, and a slayer VS and experienced Pally (me), and a slayer. The pally and slayer won. I couldn’t believe it.
Don’t underestimate the Pally’s. If they have played before, they know what they are doing. But also be careful it’s not a fake phantom ;)
There are issues with the triggers if the game doesn't have a full enough roster. The lobby was full but the game started with only 5 people. Good vs Evil was selected I was a slayer. No one left before voting was over. We were not told what we were and -whatami didn't work. Neither did any of the 'hidden' questions. Btw, I love the extra commands I've found 4 of them so far. People started leaving and a phantom was one of them. We were left with me, slayer because my income was not rising, and another player i assumed to be a phantom. I rushed lings over to him and he ended up quitting. He was a slayer and must have though I was a phantom.
So there I was all alone and the game didn't end. It seems that this bug only happens on Good vs Evil. I've seen the same thing happen once before where we weren't told what we were, but my internet went out on that game and I didn't see how it ended. We had 5 at lobby, but only 4 at the start. Watching the replay, all 4 of us were either pally or phantom, but none of us knew which. One player quit, I killed a pally, then I dropped before i was able to kill the remaining.
On another topic, I like the idea of powers in the game. I think Phantoms should get some type of power, Slayers should get different powers, but Pallys only get the increased income. Considering the polish of the map, I would guess that if this is done, powers on or off would be voted on at the beginning.
Last thought: I like playing as slayer. If you can figure out the four players that arn't slayers and kill all of them, you win. You don't need Pallys to win. Especialy with unlimited resources.
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