StarCraft® II

Testing Balance Changes

Posts: 973
Blizzard should take a look at queen instead of creep tumor. This whole imbalance was set off after the queen buff. Blizzard queen buff intention was
Zerg at the pro-level are slightly too susceptible to all-in rushes.

We want to make creep spread a little bit easier to counter hellions in ZvT.
We want to make the general zerg defense slightly stronger in the early game.

Yet, queen defense, in general, became too strong. The susceptibility to all in is counterable by good scouting which the speed overlord already solved. If other race foresee an all in, they must invest in stronger defense, more cannon/bunker/etc. Zerg could just invest in more spines. Now the queen defense is just too strong for just mild aggression.


Yeah. All these balance changes feel like some spirals that are out of control because of some initial small changes.

From Dustin Browder's interview, it seems that they think hellion run-by plus banshee are still doing a lot damages after queen buff. (which is true from games in the recent two weeks)
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Posts: 147
Yay! More trash changes that only affect 500 people out of the 7 billion on the planet and multiple millions that play the game. Way to waste those development hours Blizz?

Stop doting on the top 500 players in the world and do something useful, like releasing HotS or LotV earlier...
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Posts: 13,005
08/08/2012 05:46 PMPosted by Larse
From Dustin Browder's interview, it seems that they think hellion run-by plus banshee are still doing a lot damages after queen buff. (which is true from games in the recent two weeks)

Hellion/Banshee harass, generally with Cloak, never really stopped being relatively efficient. There are only 6 Queens; they can't be everywhere.
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Posts: 283
Creep Change is fine

Raven Change can be abused in lower leagues with these changes to the extent you will see mass ravens.

Higher leagues I can see them being used more but the cost for producing them doesn't weigh for the speed buff
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Posts: 3,029
Yay! More trash changes that only affect 500 people out of the 7 billion on the planet and multiple millions that play the game. Way to waste those development hours Blizz?

Stop doting on the top 500 players in the world and do something useful, like releasing HotS or LotV earlier...


It affects everybody and balance of the game is important.

And this is just an educated guess, but balance state is being analyzed at all times by the balance team and has no correlation to expansion development team; therefore the development time will not be affected.

HotS and LotV will release when they are ready. Do you want repeat of D3?

/points at the door
Now get off my internet.
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Posts: 1,102
08/08/2012 05:58 PMPosted by TropicalBob
From Dustin Browder's interview, it seems that they think hellion run-by plus banshee are still doing a lot damages after queen buff. (which is true from games in the recent two weeks)

Hellion/Banshee harass, generally with Cloak, never really stopped being relatively efficient. There are only 6 Queens; they can't be everywhere.


Actually their efficiency went down because the overlord speed can easily scout this out and give zerg a greater sense of what to do much quicker. Currently the only terran tricks is pretty much is pretending to upgrade something in the tech lab and then cancel it to make zerg think cloak banshee is coming and invest in spore for nothing. Overall, banshee efficiency went down a lot unless the terran somehow manage to completely hid the tech.



Yeah. All these balance changes feel like some spirals that are out of control because of some initial small changes.

From Dustin Browder's interview, it seems that they think hellion run-by plus banshee are still doing a lot damages after queen buff. (which is true from games in the recent two weeks)


Helion run-by was initially a problem when it first came into light, but soon after, Zerg invested in narrowing choke with 2 evo chambers (and/or roach warren) and a spine or two and the helion can't do much, unless it's a large number of hellions, in which if scouted, could be handled (more spine and roaches). The scouting part is taken care of by the overlord buff. Of course a 2 range buff isn't going to completely STOP helion run by. But the difference here is that zerg made a lot of queen that they can take down the helion a lot faster and losing some drone is fine especially when they're not investing much into anything else.

So many games where I actually ran around with helion and killed like 14 drones, which I felt like an accomplishment, but when I watch the replay and realized it barely even dent him because since he invested so little in anything else, his drone was already through the roof and quickly recovered after the lost. I invested in that helion in beginning in sacrifice for earlier expo and yet even though I did damage that paid for the helion themselves, it was not even worth the investment because the zerg was still ahead.
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Posts: 2
No No No No No!
Please Make Creep Atleast Range 9.
Or Increase The Cooldown For Creep.
This Is Over-nerf, Blizzard!

And I Wonder If Blizzard Is In Contact With The Pros, Because As They Said Themselves... This Patch Is Directed Only At The Pros.
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Posts: 1,085
"We've changed a unit that you see in 1% of all games"

- Dev team.
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Posts: 65
08/08/2012 04:32 PMPosted by Quetzalcoatl
The creep change isn't necessary. Protoss don't have ANY of the creep problems terrans do. why? They make obs. I think the raven buff is fine, I don't think it needed one, but now that there is one people will flock to them like flies on !@#$ so we can actually see some builds around them and some mechanics developed to use them. But once terrans start building ravens, they won't be having as many creep problems.


Gas Cost it takes for Protoss to get an Observer.
Robo Facility - 100
Observer - 75
Total - 175

Gas Cost it takes for Terran to get a Raven
Factory - 100
Starport - 100
Tech Lab for Starport - 25
Raven - 200
Total - 325

I didn't include Mineral costs on purpose since we'd have to look at a Pylon, Supply Depot, etc.
But this should paint the picture.
Different races are different. If you bothered to read the post, this post is to address difficulties in TvZ, not PvZ specifically.

Observers are Perma-Cloaked units that are difficult to spot. Ravens are a giant flying Hit-Me sign in the sky.

The amount of Gas it takes to field a Raven early severely delays other essential Upgrades. It's not that easy to get Mobile detection early on as Terrans. Each scan used is 275 unmined Minerals, and it essentially negates the Terran's Macro ability and their only way of keeping up with the other 2 Races in terms of Resource Mining.
If the Terran is taking such a big investment/risk in getting a Raven, it should have some sort of guaranteed Utility.

The proposed change is very minimal. It doesn't address many other issues that the Raven has.
Among the others that have been proposed in this thread - The issue of Upgrade Compatibility and Scaling for Turrets. Infestor's IT and Broodlord's Broodlings both have Upgrade compatibility and scales well with Zerg's Weapon/Armour upgrades. These are all temporary units.
Raven's Turrets however do not. I never understood why they didn't link the Turret's upgrades to Ship Weapons/Armour upgrades. It's not as if we're asking to link it to Infantry Upgrades. A Terran player will have to go out of their way to get it, and it'll help Late-Game scaling.
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Posts: 2,247
"We've changed a unit that you see in 1% of all games"

- Dev team.


The Raven flock grows hungry-
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Posts: 973
There are some one points out that the creep change is in fact a buff !

I don't know whether it's true but he says like this:

"Actually it is a hidden buff for zerg: it'll take 1 less active tumor now to achieve the maximum spread rate in 1 direction. Nice going D. Kim, they'll never notice!"
Edited by Larse on 8/8/2012 6:27 PM PDT
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Posts: 13,005
Actually their efficiency went down because the overlord speed can easily scout this out and give zerg a greater sense of what to do much quicker. Currently the only terran tricks is pretty much is pretending to upgrade something in the tech lab and then cancel it to make zerg think cloak banshee is coming and invest in spore for nothing. Overall, banshee efficiency went down a lot unless the terran somehow manage to completely hid the tech.

The surprise and "instant gg" potential were reduced. The actual unit efficiencies weren't. Spores won't cover 100% of the Zerg base, and the faster third and increased Drone/Queen counts mean a much later Lair.

EDIT: The faster third also means more space to cover.
Edited by TropicalBob on 8/8/2012 7:03 PM PDT
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Posts: 154
I feel the the creep change is nice. However I feel the raven speed/acceleration increase doesn't do too much. I think the problem is the casting range of seeker missle. The Zerg Infestor and Protoss High Templar both have casting ranges of 9 for their damage dealing spells while the seeker missle must be cast within a range of 5. In a spell caster battle, the raven is weak because of its range.
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MVP - StarCraft
Posts: 22,315
There are some one points out that the creep change is in fact a buff !

I don't know whether it's true but he says like this:

"Actually it is a hidden buff for zerg: it'll take 1 less active tumor now to achieve the maximum spread rate in 1 direction. Nice going D. Kim, they'll never notice!"

I just tested it, and it is most definitely a nerf. Creep spread badly slowed.
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Posts: 361
Not sure what I think about the creep tumor change. I don't think it's vision range or my spread really effect my level of play.
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Posts: 42
Like I said, the Queen change broke creep tumors not Queens.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6146568312

Good to see myself vindicated by Blizz, even if they aren't considering my changes themselves.

But these are good as well (although the Raven's problems stem more from its horrible abilities than from its speed).

EDIT: and the same idiotic talk about a creep tumor change being a buff in this thread too...
Edited by Shinka on 8/8/2012 6:43 PM PDT
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Posts: 2,229
Like I said, the Queen change broke creep tumors not Queens.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6146568312

Good to see myself vindicated by Blizz, even if they aren't considering my changes themselves.

But these are good as well (although the Raven's problems stem more from its horrible abilities than from its speed).

EDIT: and the same idiotic talk about a creep tumor change being a buff in this thread too...


Horrible abilities?

I'll take my Defiler back if you don't want it bro. PDD = win. Sure it's bad vs T3 Zerg, but it's an awesome support caster, as it is intended to be.
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Posts: 65
08/08/2012 06:31 PMPosted by OPxSubZero
I feel the the creep change is nice. However I feel the raven speed/acceleration increase doesn't do too much. I think the problem is the casting range of seeker missle. The Zerg Infestor and Protoss High Templar both have casting ranges of 9 for their damage dealing spells while the seeker missle must be cast within a range of 5. In a spell caster battle, the raven is weak because of its range.


SM actually has a range of 6. But I believe Range/Energy cost is the main issue of the spell as well.
A slight buff to it's casting range would tremendously help the Micro/Casting ability of Ravens.

A point that others have not mentioned is that Higher Range of SM also means more time to spot and dodge the Missile. It's not as if the spell is a guaranteed Instant-Hit spell.
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Posts: 361
There are some one points out that the creep change is in fact a buff !

I don't know whether it's true but he says like this:

"Actually it is a hidden buff for zerg: it'll take 1 less active tumor now to achieve the maximum spread rate in 1 direction. Nice going D. Kim, they'll never notice!"

I just tested it, and it is most definitely a nerf. Creep spread badly slowed.


Well, I can see the effectiveness of more tumors diminish with less spread range... so we'd probably need to use one/two tumors rather than three. But the point is that you can only edge up the map every cooldown and since it's a smaller distance it now takes longer to spread around the map.
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Posts: 65
Like I said, the Queen change broke creep tumors not Queens.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6146568312

Good to see myself vindicated by Blizz, even if they aren't considering my changes themselves.

But these are good as well (although the Raven's problems stem more from its horrible abilities than from its speed).

EDIT: and the same idiotic talk about a creep tumor change being a buff in this thread too...


Horrible abilities?

I'll take my Defiler back if you don't want it bro. PDD = win. Sure it's bad vs T3 Zerg, but it's an awesome support caster, as it is intended to be.


I'd much rather have Science Vessel's Irradiate than a Low-Range SM. But that's just derailing the thread and going off-topic.
Besides, Defilers are coming back in air-form in HOTS. They're called Vipers - Consume..Blinding Cloud, it's a Defiler.

PDD doesn't do anything against units that Zergs actually use. It stops Hydras, Queens, Mutas and Corruptors. 2 of Which are barely used since Infestors already fulfill Zerg's Anti-Air role. And Queens aren't meant to be a combat unit so that doesn't count.
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