StarCraft® II

Best build order for ZvZ? High Masters Zerg

Posts: 592
I think it's time i shared one of the strongest ZvZ builds i know.
This build hits at 6:15 with...
- +1 carapace
- 30-40 speed lings
And is safe from...
- Safe from 6 pool,10 pool, and any other early pool
A result of this build could be...
- Winning a high percentage of games even in high masters!
(Why is it important?)^ Well, +1carapace means that zerglings actually will not die in 1 hit from a baneling! So if you micro slips and your opponents banelings connect on more then 1-4 lings, you actually lose a total of "0" lings from that mis click instead of all of them. Also, it means your lings, are more powerful then his lings, and you could beat them even if he outnumbers you!
Now, for downsides of the build
-VERY micro intensive
-Doesn't transition well

Build Order: 14 extractor, 14 pool, 16 evo chamber, 16 overlord, 16 queen, 18 overlord. Produce pure ling from here on out, @150gas get carapace, @next 88 gas, begin to pull workers off gas 1 by 1, which will leave you exacly at 100 gas, enough for ling speed.

Side notes! - If you did the build correctly, right after you make your 16 overlord, your spawning pool will complete and you will have exactly 150 minerals to make your queen ASAP. Furthermore, when your evolution chamber finishes, you will have 150 gas, exactly enough you need to start carapace ASAP.

Why am i revealing this build to the public? Well i figure not that many people will see this post, and those that do see this post i doubt i will be facing on ladder so it actually has 0 negative effects on me as a player. It only benefits you! :D

Replay of me, a 1200-1300 point masters zerg performing this build on ladder- http://drop.sc/243697

**Ignore the chat in the replay :P people find it necessary to troll when i ask them what league they are in during a ladder game, so i trolled right back :P**
Edited by CHEESEburger on 8/26/2012 11:31 PM PDT
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Posts: 592
Also! i almost forgot, around 21-23 supply you will be floating about 180 minerals, send a drone to your natural and you will have 300 minerals to throw down your hatchery as soon as he gets there
Edited by CHEESEburger on 8/26/2012 11:37 PM PDT
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Posts: 2,460
Looks interesting. Should try this out. Master myself, but....not high enough to face you on ladder :C
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Posts: 64
This Build works vs players without a Brain-.-

The first overlord who comes over will Scout it and aswell at what Timing The Expand will go down. Submit no Speedling Expand. In normal Reacton from player you will send 2 zerglings in you re Base and Build Banes ore Roaches to easy defend this.

Yes at the End you have a Upgrade who helps you to disable micro fails but nothing else. A normal Zerg has at this Time 3 Queens a Spine and Ling Bane ore Roaches so it will be easy defendet.

Ore what is the kind idea of this fighting vs my Units? will not Work, Runnby in my Main? Blockes will not works.

So if the zerg is not total brainless this will not realy work.
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Posts: 2,460
Man now I want to listen to the other high level zerg.
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Posts: 592
Overlords usually go straight threw my main, your pool should be finishing and ovie will be forced to leave because he will get sniped by a queen if he stays. No player will keep overlord there when pool is finished.
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Posts: 73
08/27/2012 01:03 AMPosted by CHEESEburger
Overlords usually go straight threw my main, your pool should be finishing and ovie will be forced to leave because he will get sniped by a queen if he stays. No player will keep overlord there when pool is finished.


Did you not interpret what BaNix said?

His Overlord swings over, sees finished pool. You think he's going to just spin it around and go back home? No, he's going to go look at your natural to see your expo timing. As soon as he sees no Expo at at least 18 supply, you can bet your !@# he knows you're doing some early 1 base aggression/All-in. At that point the Spines go down and he fast techs to Blings or Roaches.

Your build isn't much different from a Ling Flood with +1 Carapace. The early +1 Carapace has been experimented with before, and frankly, it doesn't work, otherwise it would be standard play.

Now, I may be bronze, but I've spent enough time watching/Listening to Top-tier players to know that this build will never work if scouted properly.
Edited by Conchobar on 8/27/2012 1:26 AM PDT
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Posts: 592
^ yes you would think aggression, and it's not like i completely skip my natural, i take it at 21-23 food and i have consistantly won games with this attacks first wave even when my opponent has 3 spines, or banelings, and/or queen ramp walloff

p.s. your bronze. shhhhhh it's ok.
Edited by CHEESEburger on 8/27/2012 1:32 AM PDT
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Posts: 2,261
^ And you are only 1200 Masters. You are nowhere near 'High Masters'. You are Low Masters. Arguably, you *might* be low Masters.

Every single ZvZ opener is safe from 6/7/8 pool, including Hatch First. That has nothing to do with your 'awesome' build, that's just a matter of knowing how to make the right decisions, good macro, and a little bit of micro (base trade vs drone all-in, if he has spines, a-move and focus 1 spine at a time with 4 drones).

9/10/11 pool, when executed correctly (ie only 8 of 12 drones pulled, 1 spine per base), is a bo win against hatch first, but you can 10 drone scout to reactively go 15 pool instead, or just go pool/hatch, which is quickly becoming one of the most popular zvz openers these days.

Going 14/14 like you suggest, or any gas/pool opening, is way too economically behind both pool/hatch and hatch first. There's a reason literally no one goes 14/14 anymore at high level play, being behind 5+ drones at the start of the game just hurts you way too much.

16 evo chamber. lololol.

A baneling nest is way better and stronger than +1 carapace. Yes, +1 carapace lings survive a baneling hit, but +1 carapace lings will get %@**d by a 2 queen ramp block, with a single spine, with bane support, or ling/bane. It will be very obvious you are doing a 1 base all-in when you go gas/pool, ie your natural is so late.

Oh wait, wow, you don't even get a natural. Any zerg with half a brain will pump lings and have a baneling nest up wayyyyyyyyyy before +1 carapace finishes. You realize it takes almost 3 minutes for a level 1 upgrade to finish since the time you start the evo chamber right? You can have a LOT of lings and banelings in 3 minutes, especially with an opener that's economically superior.

There's a reason no one does ling/bane all-ins in high level play. Defensive banes just !@#$ all over it, especially with the increased popularity of a 3rd queen in ZvZ, and a spine+baneling nest at ~28 supply. Someone would have to be braindead to not realize you didn't expand, most people will pump ling/bane when they see no expo by ~23 supply.

Your a low masters zerg who's doing a bad all-in against bad zergs. You have no idea what you are talking about.
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Posts: 3,171
This Build works vs players without a Brain-.-

The first overlord who comes over will Scout it and aswell at what Timing The Expand will go down. Submit no Speedling Expand. In normal Reacton from player you will send 2 zerglings in you re Base and Build Banes ore Roaches to easy defend this.

Yes at the End you have a Upgrade who helps you to disable micro fails but nothing else. A normal Zerg has at this Time 3 Queens a Spine and Ling Bane ore Roaches so it will be easy defendet.

Ore what is the kind idea of this fighting vs my Units? will not Work, Runnby in my Main? Blockes will not works.

So if the zerg is not total brainless this will not realy work.


You might be right, but you need to work on your grammar big time.
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Posts: 1,658
I use a similar build, but I get Speed before +1 armor. I feel that is the better way to do it because you need speed first to deny scouting properly. Plus, your opponent should notice a lack of Speedlings if they scout you opening 14/14, which screams cheese incoming.

Edit: If they get a Drone scout in, it helps a lot if you pull Drones off Extractor at 100 gas and put them back on it after chasing the scout away. Looks just like a Speedling expand.
Edited by BallsOfSteel on 8/27/2012 7:43 AM PDT
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Posts: 14,056
Any build where you don't expand and then wait. and wait. and wait. and then attack.

is pretty awful.

It's like flipping a coin and letting the guy see it land before he calls it.

Looks just like a Speedling expand.

No it doesn't. it's missing the expand. an overlord will ALWAYS see the expansion or not. When the expansion is 150 gas late, it is very clear that something is up.
Once the hatch is eventually built, the overlord will position itself behind the natural minerals to watch drone count. You can transfer drones once to hide that, but it will peek with each larva cycle where there should be drone bursts, and there won't be. Unless you time drone transfers with larva cycles, in which case, my hat is off to you, sir.

The defender will stop droning, build a spinecrawler, position his queens on his ramp, get a baneling nest, and make lings. He may sneak in 2-3 drones here and there to get his lead when you aren't moving out, but he won't be making huge waves of drones. If you rely on your opponent making 40 drones, skipping their spine crawler, and starting their lair against a guy who cut drones at 16 for three minutes, your build can't be considered solid. Can you add that to your list of downsides?

Many builds will have speed before you (because you go carapace than speed), so you can't deny scouting, and you don't have map control. When your expansion is late, an opponent will expect 1 base baneling, and start making a few lings. When your expansion does go down (late), those lings will go towards your base and run a full circuit because you can't stop them. Or you can hold position the ramp and he will attack your natural with his lings, and then you reveal your ling count to get him out of your base. that should go on your list too.

Your lings don't die to a baneling, but they still take 35 damage. you rely on your opponent losing two banelings to a single zergling.

on another note, why do you ask their league on ladder? are you regularly facing diamonds?
Edited by Oboeman on 8/27/2012 2:06 PM PDT
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Posts: 1,063
Pure ling can work, but you have to have obscenely good control. Personally I find banes are easier to control.

Also, I'd take +1 atk over +1 carapace anyday for builds like this. +1 carapace is more expensive at a time when you really need your res, and 1hp zerglings are pretty useless.

2hatch ling is also better, and probably superior to this build just due to pure numbers (not to mention you have an expo).
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Posts: 13,005
I've never faced anything like this, so I can't say outright if it doesn't have merit, but any good Zerg will scout that you're leaving 3 Drones on after mining the initial 100 gas for Metabolic Boost on a Speedling expand build. So they'll expect aggression, even if you drop a Hatchery.

The only thing I see going for this is that if your opponent doesn't scout an Evolution Chamber, they will expect Banelings, or if they do scout it, they'll expect a +1 Melee Speedling all in.

Either way, they'll expect an all in and should prepare for it. With a better economy and production, a good Zerg should be able to win regardless of the +1 Carapace.
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Posts: 610
Interesting, I will definitely give this a try:D
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Posts: 335
No no more drone production after 18 supply? Can that supply nonstop ling production?
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Posts: 1,022
Watched EGMachine lose to this sort of all in....... I don't see why everyone is hating so bad. It's an all in. I've also seen Catz do something very similar without the carapace + ridiculous micro.
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Posts: 6,385
08/28/2012 11:03 AMPosted by ohm
No no more drone production after 18 supply? Can that supply nonstop ling production?


It'll be just enough for constant ling production with a queen and a little minerals left over.
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Posts: 13,005
08/28/2012 09:25 PMPosted by Common
Watched EGMachine lose to this sort of all in....... I don't see why everyone is hating so bad. It's an all in. I've also seen Catz do something very similar without the carapace + ridiculous micro.

A Speedling all in is very common. A +1 Melee Speedling all in is also something you run into occasionally. I've never seen a +1 Carapace Speedling all in. Ever.

It's all because of timings, probably. Even with that extra oomph to survive a couple Baneling hits, you're waiting an extra 30s over a +1 Melee Speedling all in, and an extra couple minutes or so over a regular Speedling all in. Not to mention that your Speedlings don't kill anything any faster, so while you take longer to hit and kill things, your opponent has more time for reinforcements and anti all in unit build-up.
Edited by TropicalBob on 8/28/2012 10:23 PM PDT
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Posts: 190
^ And you are only 1200 Masters. You are nowhere near 'High Masters'. You are Low Masters. Arguably, you *might* be low Masters.


LMAO. Two things about this thread.

1) This build doesn't work hahaha.

2) 1200 point masters isn't even a little bit low masters. GMs play 1400+ Masters so how the !@#$ can 1200 be low? I hate it when people don't use common sense. :(
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