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Jester, who hates his internet:
Edited by Zarkun on 9/3/2012 1:48 PM PDT
Try to be a bit more creative? This vague statement honestly grinds my gears because it offers nothing substantive to the receiver except that "whatever you did sucked and I can't give a good reason why except that it was not creative."
Yes, I am aware they are a perverted fusion of Zerg and Protoss and that the Reaver and Destroyer shows both sides of the perversion. However, while I am trying to create these units, I try to keep it relevant to lore. The hybrids have still not come in full force and their numbers are only increasingly becoming more active as the events of SC2 transpire. As such, most of what I wrote in the lore section are somewhat vague but they imply what abilities the Hybrid subtypes may have.
If you are going to criticize me, I ask all of you to say something better than it is not creative. While I could give them an ability to create a black hole, have godlike stamina or create an explosion the size of an entire continent, that would be a very boring uninteresting unit. Ultimately, saying something is not creative is the lazy way of saying "I don't know what to say nor do I have anyway to support what I am about to say but what you have done is mediocre."
If you tell me to create a zealot with claws for arms, we already have that. It's called the Reaver.
Any way, you notice that I do not put up a description of the hybrid units. That is on purpose because I leave the image to reader. I'll work on the rest some other day. I have some ideas.
Your faction looks fine to me Jester. Nothing too OP except the superweapon but that's why it is a superweapon.
Edited by smylez on 9/3/2012 2:21 PM PDT
Ima throw something out here two (sic).
Random words that I'll prolly use later for GHH: (These are spoilers, but I don't think you'll understand... yet. Actually... You might understand, just not with great detail.)
War in Heaven
The Red Dragon
Edited by Avikon on 9/3/2012 3:18 PM PDT
smylez, I am not trying to criticize you, and I apologize if it seems so, but it was an encouragement. However, because of the fact that you have Zerg and Protoss, two races who have the most powerful psionics, also with the faction that is capable of insane genetic and biological modification. Also due to the fact that so few Hybrids have been spotted overall (Only two, not counting the look into the future) you are given even more flexibility than the Zerg. Heck, you have more flexibility than I do with Vaxarus machines. Use the two spotted as baseplates. Marr can represent the Psionic potential, and the Castanar Hybrid (Casta) can represent the physical potential.
I had an idea, using the theory of the Hybridization of the two races, in Hunt for the Snowbound Relic, but I am having second thoughts about using such a force. These Hybrids weren't as large as the other faction (Total force size, if I had to guess, was one ship and 745 troops, not counting transports and builders) but they were planned to be super efficient, taking a faction like Zarkun's above on head-to-head and fighting their force through barriers, insects, and bio-plasma.
I have the utmost faith in the fact that the Hybrids will be born as a faction, and I have utmost faith that you will be the head of such creatures, but most factions require the trading of ideas and chewing over things that have to single out them out to be what they are. As I stated above, the choice you have has already set you off with a HUGE start, making your faction more flexible than Protoss and Terran, heck, even Zerg.
Here, the beginning unit I had planned for them, but I feel they won't be used anymore.
Banshee: Utilizing the idea of the blood-rage of a zergling and the tactfulness of those of the Templar, the Banshee is the main infantry unit as a response to the Marine and Zealot. By combining muscles of Zerglings and the psionics of Zealots, they don't require cybernetics to pull up close and rip their enemy apart, like found on the zealot. Because of this, their psionics can be used to give them a larger advantage, such as a Psionic Scream that stuns enemies nearby. However, such an ability forces their focus elsewhere, and their shields disable until their focus can be brought back around to it.
Edited by Jester on 9/3/2012 7:18 PM PDT
I apologize for my rant there as it was uncalled for and very disrespectful but it's just a peeve of mine when people say "Be more creative." I want to punch kittens someone says that.
The issue I take with this and this is exactly why creating these Hybrid units are so hard is that the Hybrids do not take merely a piece of the Protoss and a piece of the Zerg to create a new unit. They take the swarm and the Protoss as a whole to create a super being using the very best both races offer.
In creating the units I try to create units that will serve roles like the ones you see in SC2 while maintaining their lore status. The problem is that these units are stupidly strong to begin with and there is no way in hell to actually balance them out but its the best way to design a unit. As you stated, I use the template of the Reavers and Destroyers and try to new create units.
As I mentioned and I am sure many people will agree with me when I say this, Hybrids are the apex race. No matter what subset they are, they will all share certain characteristics which makes it even harder to differentiate them.
Let's take your Banshee for example. If we were to give it a role, it would be a tier one melee shock trooper. But the Reaver is also capable of performing that duty very well. In addition, what's stopping a Reaver from simply charging also? They are pinnacle of physical strength and I am positive one can outrun anyone that isn't in a vehicle. As Hybrids are already powerful psionic creatures to begin with no matter how specialized they are. The psionic scream that you mentioned in the Banshee seems redundant at best.
Remember Maar? He took over an entire Protoss settlement by himself (You'd think other settlements on the planet will fight back but I guess that was the only one or Maar actually enslaved the entire planet). They don't build in the conventional sense. They enslave you and treat you as cannon fodder. If a ship containing 700+ hybrid descends, no ground army (the armies in Snowbound seem quite small) will stand a chance in a straight up fight even if they were all Banshees. They will easily enslave the natives of the planet and use them against the enemy before they bother to show up.
Thanks for your feedback. Maybe I am thinking about this in the wrong way. Perhaps I should focus on a specific aspect and build it up from there. I'll have to think a little more before I post again.
When I think of Hybrids, I think of the strengths of two units from each faction, combine them together, slap a name, weapon and ability to them, and look it over again to see if they need to be more or need to be less.
I regard to the Banshee, if I had to make stats for it, it would like this, serving the same role as the Zealot and the Zergling; the melee tier one troops:
Damage: 6 with 2 attacks
It's stats like stated above, the mass-produced version instead of the version in Hunt, make it a Double-sided blade. Do you cast the Scream, and take the chance that enemies might have re-enforcements? Or do you not, and take the chance that your enemy, with better numbers, might wipe you out? I think about it from both an RP standpoint and a gaming standpoint when I make efforts to produce Hybrid-like troops.
In regards to the enslaving, they aren't Dark Voice Hybrids, they are Hybrids made by a very powerful archon. They were to serve as the personal guards and scouts for the Archon. Because they are still being lead by a Protoss, they have the biggest problem of all, that even the Hybrids don't suffer because of being under the Dark Voice: Pride.
Also, speaking of Marr: We really got nothing about this monster. For all we know, he could have taken the whole planet over. However, my idea (which he might have used before I developed it) is that he may have used the Khala, corrupted it, and abused it until the Zhakul Guardians regarded the Hybrid as a god, or a living, breathing example of the Xel'naga. He then used them as fodder to try to stop Zeratul, who freed the Preservers and killed Marr. If any of the Guardians had been alive after, they might have came back to their senses. As to corrupting Stalkers, maybe mind control. Not sure how they could really control Dark Templars.
Edited by Jester on 9/4/2012 12:13 PM PDT
If we were both to create a hybrid faction and compare, yours and mine will most likely be very different. I don't think of the Hybrids as easily mass produced because Hybrids are not cheap at all and the process to create one takes time. Hence, each individual hybrid is immensely powerful and once they awaken they establish a link the Dark Voice and take orders from him or they have an instinct to exert the Dark Voice's will.
The idea of mass produced "weak" Hybrids (I'm assuming things now, less time to mature and using "inferior materials" for cheaper, quicker hybrids) just doesn't click as the Dark Voice would want strong individual harbingers to carry out its will, not disposable fodder that can relatively be killed easily by sustained fire. Not only are they likely less sturdy, they alert the enemy a lot faster. It's a lot harder to track and also a lot harder to kill one if they perform their deed around the sector as a lone super powered agent.
Put it this way, I believe a Hybrids' power grows exponentially if they given time to "grow" instead of being mass produced. True, the mass produced variants are still fairly powerful, but most likely they are exponentially weaker than the ones given time to grow and having "superior DNA." Those Hybrids are the kinds of Hybrids the Dark Voice wants.
Whatever Maar did, it shows that the "True" (non-massed) Hybrids are more than capable of corrupting the Protoss and bending them towards their will. Now, would Banshees be able to do that given their "weakened" nature?
As for the Archon creating Hybrids, I still think the Hybrids will most likely rebel as the process to create a Hybrid has been disseminated across the sector. The blueprints are there and whoever created the blueprints probably devised it in a way so that any hybrid created through that process will serve the likely Dark Voice, not their creator.
Let's run a list of people who created Hybrids.
1. Duran has seeded many Hybrid facilities around the sector and if he is Narud, he has probably created more hidden facilities that Mengsk have no knowledge of.
2. At Castanar, a Hybrid Reaver was created after many failures and it was a Dominion facility. The Dominion is at the very least, aware of hybrids but I sincerely doubt they know their true nature. They only think of breeding a super weapon. Duran most likely gave them the schematics at some point.
3. Ulrejaz to my knowledge only had 6 unknown creatures in a Vat in a room with a huge pure khaydarian crystal. It's speculated that they are Hybrids by the Preserver Zamara.
It is highly unlikely they will be mass produced given their nature and how cumbersome it is to make one.
Edited by smylez on 9/4/2012 2:00 PM PDT
We both can agree that DV wants the BIG guys, the Hybrids like Marr and Casta. But, let me ask you this:
If you're base was under siege, and you had a choice:
The easy to make and easy to field, but squishy Hybrids?
The tough, deadly and nearly unstoppable, but taking forever to build Hybrids?
Speaking as a Zerg player, I want both. Use the squishes to hold them while the real Hybrids were being created. That's why I made the "Weaker" Hybrids, because of the flaw of getting the "Real" Hybrids out. Although the Swarm themselves easily fills the fodder gap, since when in the world has one of their attack waves been "Silent"? No one has really seen the "Weak" Hybrids in battle, so no one knows how they work. Who knows, maybe the individuals need the masses in order to carry the will of the Dark Voice.
The "Weaker" ones use a system similar to the Zerg growing, and the DNA hybridization is created to fit the unit that is like the Larva, which is why the "Weakers" can be fielded in larger numbers and faster than their more destructive and more expensive cousins.
I agree with the Hybrid's power grows the longer they exist, but where do they start?
Marr was also a "True" Hybrid whose focus was in Psionics. Banshees are the "Fake" Hybrids whose focus is the art of ripping the crap out of everything in sight. Casta v.s. Banshee,we haven't seen Casta fight, nor has anyone seen the mass-produced Banshees fight, so we have no idea on capabilities.
Speaking of Duran, I don't think his is Narud. They really don't have anything in common.
Edited by Jester on 9/4/2012 3:55 PM PDT
The question here is that given the only way the create Hybrids is through artificial means, is it more efficient to create an individual Hybrid that is all powerful or en masse Hybrids that are stronger than any other race but MUCH MUCH weaker than one that has been developed for a long time.
As I think about it, the research facilities that are creating these Hybrids can actually do whatever they want so lorewise, these "weaker" Hybrids are possible. The only problems I can see is perhaps logistics of massing these units because they will still be expensive and time consuming compared to other forms weaponry. Then there is the problem of controlling them.
What I meant by silent is that a "True" Hybrid can perform its duties incognito thanks to its impressive powers. Maar, through some unknown means, took over a Protoss encampment and trapped its 3 Preservers and NONE of the Protoss had a clue something went amiss. True, it was a forbidden planet that few Protoss tread but given its status and that it housed Preservers, a distress beacon would have been sent if the planet encountered trouble. Will Banshees do the same?
As for cannon fodder, the Hybrids can find them in the lesser races. The Zergs and Protoss, both species uplifted by the Xel'naga, can be subverted by the Hybrids. Terrans can also be subverted.
The Castanar Hybrid was virtually invincible and Stettman mentions this. No conventional weapon could harm it, including the plasma rifle pick up in the mission but the Chrono Rift device does slow it down. It absorbed the Zerg and Protoss specimen like they were candy. Its screams were also heard by psionics onboard Raynor's ship (likely a far distance from the facility) and it scared the hell out of Tosh. I put my money on this MOFO if it fights a group of banshees.
The power thing you mentioned does throw a wrench. I guess each Hybrid's power depend on how good the genetic materials were to create them? I do my super power Hybrids, you make the mass produced Hybrids if you are up for it and we see what we get in like a week.
Duran, spell it backwards and you get
...Narud. Metzen also hinted that he was Duran but I guess we have to wait until HOTS to find out. Duran is most likely a shapeshifter so that's why he looks as he as now. That's my theory anyway.
Edited by smylez on 9/4/2012 4:15 PM PDT
The problem of controlling them is simple: Psionic orders are planted, usually long and complex, and it doesn't get communicated to until it's objective is complete. That's what I had planned.
As for the planet thing, it wouldn't be JUST banshees attacking. There would be others attacking, and due to the stealth of the overall faction as I had planned, they would have gotten it done and gotten out before anyone could investigate to find what had happened.
As for the expensiveness, again, modified Larva. I'm using the Zerg's idea of creation, using resources and genetic codes, partly already put in them, and partly given by their Commander.
As for the Casta v.s. Banshee, there is way too many factors to include that would decide the outcome, but the Banshees should able to hurt Casta. Not completely sure as to how his hide works, but I think some damage might be able to be done on him.
I looked at the "True" Hybrids as "Aspects" rather than which genetic material was better. I guess you could interpret it any way you wanted to.
As a note about Duran-Narud, Blizzard could have just be uncreative, and lazy, deciding not to do so. They have quite a few differences which sets them out.
smylez. Here you go, the only units I had planned for them, for they were an all-infantry army.
Path-hunter: Using the sight from an Overseer and the agility of Dark Templar, the Pathfinder is the scout of the hybrids, having detection and cloaking, along with being fast and able to wrap shadows around him to teleport or evade weapons. They have no weapons, nor do they have any armor. They are extremely fragile, with almost nothing stopping them from being killed in a single shot besides their agility.
Banshee: Utilizing the idea of the blood-rage of a zergling and the tactfulness of those of the Templar, the Banshee is the main infantry unit as a response to the Marine and Zealot. By combining muscles of Zerglings and the psionics of Zealots, they don't require cybernetics to pull up close and rip their enemies apart, like found on the zealot. Because of this, their psionics can be used to give them a larger advantage, such as a Psionic Scream that stuns enemies nearby. However, such an ability forces their focus elsewhere, and their shields disable until their focus can be brought back around to it.
Avaratis: A bio-mechanical construct utilizing the psionic abilities of the Sentry and the durability of a Roach, Avaratis are tanky ranged creatures that can deploy powerful force-fields on allies, making them invulnerable to ranged attacks for a short time, or creating a pulse that accelerates weapons velocity or power. The biggest problem with this, however, is that direct psionic activities will disrupt their perceptions, making it difficult for them to aid their allies.
Davagous: A creature with an immortal’s upper body fused to it. It has no real attack besides a weak slash. Instead, its ability forces it to lower to the ground and fires the cannons rapidly, doing heavy damage to armored enemies. Resembling aliens from the old Terran movies, the Davagous is slow and powerful, its cannons making up for most of its flaws. Has difficulty with close-quarters and fighting in buildings due to its bulk.
Sargarus: Psionic specialist that also uses insects to do battle. He can use the bugs to create a Dark Swarm, blocking ranged damage, or to make a Blinding Cloud, reducing enemy weapon range. Can create storms, set enemies on fire, or throw them around with his mind. However, as with all power, his comes with problems. After using enough bugs or psionics, he will burn out and die from it.
Fabious: Using the shielding of an Immortal, the durability of a Brutalisk, and the strength of an Omegalisk, the Fabious is the worst nightmare of anything that is on the ground. They are super-durable units which can dish as much as it takes. It has difficulty dealing with buildings, and is slow, almost as slow as Overlords, but they are worth the cost of deploying.
Matalous: Flying infantry siege unit. Spits spines at anything nearby when he is not sieging anything. When he is sieged, he becomes a floating platform firing Bio-plasma bolts at targets. Its firing rate can be sped up supported by Sargarus’s bugs. It can not get up if it lands, making it the priority to bring it to the ground. Is also blind, relying on its psionics to get it targets.
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