StarCraft® II

Aggressive Zerg Openings

Posts: 38
In the current meta, I feel like there is TONS of room for aggressive zerg openings. Everyone and their mother is playing as greedy as possible (non ZvZ), and it's kinda fun turning the tables and making the other races react to you in the earlygame or they insta lose >:)

Lately I've been experimenting with the 7rr. If you expand behind it how much damage needs to be done to not be so far behind you're better off just leaving? I've been experimenting with it today and yesterday and have found great success with it vs top 8 diamonds through top 25 masters on the ladder.

The funny thing is I have NEVER just outright won with the first push. Even if I do minimal damage (a gateway, a forge, etc) I'm still even on workers at the 7 min mark, and they've had to invest enough into defense to not leave me light years behind my opponent. It's the same concept as forcing a zerg to stop droning isnt it? Force a terran/toss to invest in cannons or bunkers or unit cycles NOW instead of teching or ramping up production.

Am I wrong about the 7RR being a decent opening zvp/t? And what other aggressive builds are there for zerg to use and abuse early game?
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Posts: 2,107
7rr is a great counter to FFE if you spawn close position on a 4 person map. the way you can tell how successful it is is based on how much damage you do as you said yourself.

but also, doing damage isn't necessarily killing probes or scv's. vs toss, if you can force them to over-cannon - that is considered sufficient dmg. they're 150 a pop, so think about it, 2 of them is 300 minerals not being used on probes - hurting them and slowing them down enough so that you can expand after that. it's extremely risky though, because i think if they 4 gate push, you just wont' have enough behind it to defend...so scouting is key, and like you said it punishes greed, so you must do damage with the push or it won't do anything.

vs terran it directly counters hellion play. if they FE, i think most players open with a few marines and a bunker, so it might punish them as well but i'm gonna stick to my opinion that the 7rr is only viable in close position spawns...not long cross position maps where you're just giving them time to react.

i would just base it on the map, and be sure to have a strong economy behind it - but i guess to answer your question, yes it works. i don't see it used much these days though, maybe a high lvl master can give you better input.

good luck :)
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Posts: 3,392
09/05/2012 04:37 PMPosted by KILLorD
7rr is a great counter to FFE if you spawn close position on a 4 person map.


Yeah the 7RR and the couple of variations of it were great on the smaller maps like metalopolis, where it was a pretty short distance between bases even if you weren't in "close" spawns. Now it seems like it's only viable on close spawns on 4 player maps as the distances between bases on the remaining 2 player maps are generally too large.

I do like the idea of early zerg aggression though as the opponent rarely expects it. With roaches you can do some great damage like destroying the forge (often cancelling +1), or a gateway, or a pylon or two or even the cybercore if they have used it as part of their wall, and if you kill any probes on top of that it's a bonus.

A recent example is Root.Slush vs Light.SSon in IPTL the other day. Slush started with an 8 roach rush, got in, did some reasonable damage. Didn't win the game outright but he did enough to be able to stabalise his own economy. Game went for about another hour after that! Pretty crazy game, you should watch it: http://www.twitch.tv/ignproleague/b/331096086 (game starts after only a minute or so, it's the first game in the VOD).
Edited by WhitePointer on 9/5/2012 7:50 PM PDT
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Posts: 2,107
cool i'll check the game out - i personally love using roaches vs toss, they just feel really comfortable, but never thought about roach rushing one :D

this replay might change my mind >:)
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Posts: 260
ZvP 7pool drone to 9 double extractor trick and make 3 lings cancel extractors then overlord and drones/queen/expand and go ling muta if the game goes on that long
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Posts: 73
Generally, my ZvP goes in one of two directions.

11 Overpool

Scout

See FFE: 7RR, tech, work at Infestor/Ling/Muta

See ANYTHING else: 11OP/18H, Mass Queen/Spine, Saturate Minerals and then take 4 gases. Drop a RW, Max Roaches. (Queens are kind of OP bros)
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Posts: 2,107
anyone else feel like 10p has forever been figured out by toss?

i used to love using it, but now it seems even the best 10p rushers have issues :p

i still see 10p used in tournaments though, but sadly only in zvz
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Posts: 6,418
Against Terrans, the 34-ish drone 9 roach + banelings all-in.

Against Protoss, ignoring the 2 base roach/sling all-in because it sucks, you fake a 3rd and then baneling bust them (let them scout the 3rd and then cancel it right before it finishes).
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Posts: 270
My favorite vs. FFE build is Leenocks 10 Roach Allin. You make a hatchery at the normal timing, then cancel it and push out with 10 roaches and speedlings instead of the normal 7. The toss can only hold if he makes 2+ cannons before your roaches get there, and the only way to do that is to have map control which you deny with your early speedlings.
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Posts: 131
Generally, my ZvP goes in one of two directions.

11 Overpool

Scout

See FFE: 7RR, tech, work at Infestor/Ling/Muta

See ANYTHING else: 11OP/18H, Mass Queen/Spine, Saturate Minerals and then take 4 gases. Drop a RW, Max Roaches. (Queens are kind of OP bros)


You should really try learning how to macro. If you're cheesing every time they try to macro that's silly.
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Posts: 632
i almost always start with 11 overpool cause it's reactive to a lot of early antics and can be morphed into fairly good early pressure pretty seamlessly. i'm all for early pressure :)
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Posts: 797
In the current meta, I feel like there is TONS of room for aggressive zerg openings. Everyone and their mother is playing as greedy as possible (non ZvZ), and it's kinda fun turning the tables and making the other races react to you in the earlygame or they insta lose >:)

Lately I've been experimenting with the 7rr. If you expand behind it how much damage needs to be done to not be so far behind you're better off just leaving? I've been experimenting with it today and yesterday and have found great success with it vs top 8 diamonds through top 25 masters on the ladder.

The funny thing is I have NEVER just outright won with the first push. Even if I do minimal damage (a gateway, a forge, etc) I'm still even on workers at the 7 min mark, and they've had to invest enough into defense to not leave me light years behind my opponent. It's the same concept as forcing a zerg to stop droning isnt it? Force a terran/toss to invest in cannons or bunkers or unit cycles NOW instead of teching or ramping up production.

Am I wrong about the 7RR being a decent opening zvp/t? And what other aggressive builds are there for zerg to use and abuse early game?


When you get to be a good player, you tend to become more macro-oriented and realize small all ins like the 7rr are meant to do damage, not outright kill an opponent. I do 9 pools on 1v1 maps, and expand behind it. Its worked well vs diamonds and masters alike.

Other all ins ive seen is going for the three hatch opening, but taking one gas after you start your third. then do a baneling bust somewhere in the 6 min range. Im too macro orientated, so I have little knowledge of the specific builds and timings for these.
Edited by Scyt on 9/7/2012 1:50 PM PDT
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Posts: 83
1 build I made up and used to love doing was
11 overpool
drone to 14
make 6 lings
make queen
expo
queen
extractor
(first 100 gas ling speed)<==your not waiting for that to attack though
overlord
send first queen down
build second queen immediately after first
timmings line up well (hit right before first marine sometimes)
then drone while harassing
its good for sniping 1 of their pylons or a bunker(if not pulls them off the line for a sec). and you give them something to deal with while you drone up as long as you keep the lings alive
Also, you don't have to make those lings. They can be drones if scouted. So they rush their build and throw off their timmings for some bs that didnt come. :)
but like anything else if you don't do any damage at all, your soooo far behind....
Edited by Whosnextt on 9/7/2012 3:09 PM PDT
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Posts: 73
Generally, my ZvP goes in one of two directions.

11 Overpool

Scout

See FFE: 7RR, tech, work at Infestor/Ling/Muta

See ANYTHING else: 11OP/18H, Mass Queen/Spine, Saturate Minerals and then take 4 gases. Drop a RW, Max Roaches. (Queens are kind of OP bros)


You should really try learning how to macro. If you're cheesing every time they try to macro that's silly.


Why would you ever NOT punish a Toss for playing greedy? Make them dump money into cannons, delay the expo, snipe some probes.

Macro =/= Greedy

7RR is borderline Cheese, but it's not quite there. It's not an all-in in ZvP as long as you do the damage you need to do. (Which is actually very little to be considered even.)

I like how you said learn to macro, when I explicitly stated that against any build other than FFE I go into max Roaches which requires a hell of a lot of macro to execute and win. Because you are essentially just trying to outmax the Toss at that point.
Edited by Conchobar on 9/7/2012 3:53 PM PDT
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Posts: 1,717
The 7rr sets you back way too much in my opinion because you are stuck on one base. I mix in an all-in every so often in both ZvT and ZvP.

In ZvT, I go ling/bling all-in off 2 bases. I only do this if I see a fast expand, and even then I only do it sometimes. People usually don't like being all-in'd though! Here is a sample game - http://drop.sc/248215. I miss a few injects, but he does not react properly, so I get a win. It's off 2 bases, so if you do some damage, you can sometimes macro out of it. However, if you do no economy damage, you basically lose the game.

In ZvP, I sometimes go with a 3 base 1 queen all-in. Drone to about 24, get only 1 queen, and make roach/lings with speed. It hits around 7:30, which is right before most protoss warp gate builds are ready. You have 3 bases, so again, if you do damage to the economy of the protoss player, you might be able to macro out of it.

Both builds are all-in. Less all-in than a 7RR, but all-in nonetheless. I like how both builds let me make the macro or all-in decision after I get some basic scouting information, unlike a 7RR where you have to make the all-in decision very early.

Oh and we should all be mainly playing macro games! All-in and cheese games are fun when you mix them in, but macro is what makes us better! Don't cheese too much!
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Posts: 906


You should really try learning how to macro. If you're cheesing every time they try to macro that's silly.


Why would you ever NOT punish a Toss for playing greedy? Make them dump money into cannons, delay the expo, snipe some probes.

Macro =/= Greedy

7RR is borderline Cheese, but it's not quite there. It's not an all-in in ZvP as long as you do the damage you need to do. (Which is actually very little to be considered even.)

I like how you said learn to macro, when I explicitly stated that against any build other than FFE I go into max Roaches which requires a hell of a lot of macro to execute and win. Because you are essentially just trying to outmax the Toss at that point.

If you don't kill the toss with the 7rr u will lose. You are incredibly far behind economically even if you kill like 10 probes.
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