StarCraft® II

Gateway vs Warpgate, Blizzard listen

Posts: 210
What is the issue on Warpgates and Gateways? Once you research warp gates, not only do you build units more quickly, but anywhere where there is power. 99.9% of the time, there is no reason to go back to gateways. This is a bad functionality when compared to anything else you can do in the game.

If, for example, a protoss opens with a very aggressive opener then falls back to expand:
(advantage) He has more units early on
(disadvantage) He has later macro/tech

^This is the kind of stuff that makes Starcraft exciting. It's the fact that when you do one thing, or open one different way, you get something and you lose something.

If you make a 10 cannons at every base to defend mutalisk harass:
(advantage) You're far more secure against mutas
(disadvantage) You're way behind on minerals because of the investment

Smart players eventually find balance between situations where you get one thing or the other. For example, the old TvZ opener (before queen buff) where the Terran expands and harasses with 4 hellions- the terran gets to grab a quick expansion while putting on early pressure. Great! This is what makes one opener better than the other.

But this is not the case with warp gates. To reiterate, there's no advantage to using gateways over warpgates. It's like having marines and supermarines that come from a barracks, and they both cost the same except that the supermarines do 2x the damage.

If I was to 3gate expand with no warpgates:
(disadvantage) My units come out slower
(disadvantage) My units cant come out anywhere where there is power.

Do you see the problem? Warp gates are meant to be special because "ooh you can warp in anywhere" but there HAS to be some kind of disadvantage to it. Almost anything you do in starcraft has an advantage and a disadvantage, even if they are minor, but warp gates lack this function, thus making the gateway absolutely useless, and thus just being a double disadvantage.

Another problem with warp gates is that the whole concept of defender's advantage is completely nullified. Both zerg and terran have "home advantage" in many scenarios. For example, the guy in the zerg's base can be surprised by a huge batch of lings and take out the attack, or terran has bunkers at home which he can repair. These are advantages that these races most likely wouldn't have on the opponent's front doorstep. Now protoss, has nearly the exact same advantages as if they were to warp in at the enemy's doorstep or at their own doorstep. So many games, especially RTS's, have this concept of "defender's advantage" (heck, even Tug of Wars have a defender's advantage when you think about it). Warpgates nullify this, and gateways have the potential to fix this!

My suggestion to fix? Consider lowering the build time of gateway units or raising warp gate units' cooldowns to the point that protoss players feel that there exists a reason to switch back to a gateway rather than a warp gate. I know that this would be a pain in the butt to balance, but give it a try:

(advantage) My units build faster!
(disadvantage) My units only come out through the gateway.
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Posts: 450
I think of it more as just a basic mechanic of the race, like having queens at your hatcheries. There's no reason NOT to have one because it's part of the basic way of playing the race.

Also, I don't feel that there's a reason to get rid of the warpgate, so not all protoss players think that. And sure I may just be plat but I think many higher ranked players would agree as well.
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Posts: 335
It's a UPgrade not a trade off. that's why there is no advantages of keeping the gateways
Edited by Gamble on 9/11/2012 9:53 PM PDT
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Posts: 971
O.o

What is with people's fascination with trying to make Gateways a viable alternative to Warpgates? Warpgate is an upgrade. It's supposed to be better. Plus, it's more fun. Gateways are boring.
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Posts: 750
Actually, it's 100% of the time. There is just no reason to trade the build time reduction and the negation of the defender's advantage for the ability to queue units up.
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Posts: 936
09/11/2012 09:34 PMPosted by EmptyMind
I think of it more as just a basic mechanic of the race, like having queens at your hatcheries. There's no reason NOT to have one because it's part of the basic way of playing the race.


That's not true, most zergs will opt to only have 3-4 queens injecting no matter how many hatches they have.

But I agree with OP. Warp gate needs to have a downside.
Edited by FluffyZerg on 9/12/2012 5:42 AM PDT
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Posts: 174
I think they should not have it be an upgrade. Just a time limit (figure out a way to prevent it from happening super early, you don't want people warping in your base at 2 minutes).
AND then have warp-in cooldown longer for warp gates than for gateways.

But a trade off would be excellent. I would add another facet to the game.
It would give the defender somewhat of an advantage in PvP, but also allow for quick reinforcements if the protoss were to choose to go on the offensive. However, when they go on the offensive, it takes slightly longer for the cool down.

It would be interesting to have to decide, or to see pro gamers changing their gateways back and forth depending on their strategy.
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Posts: 3,180
09/11/2012 09:09 PMPosted by oVi
99.9% of the time


what's the .01%?

09/11/2012 09:09 PMPosted by oVi
Almost anything you do in starcraft has an advantage and a disadvantage, even if they are minor, but warp gates lack this function, thus making the gateway absolutely useless, and thus just being a double disadvantage.


what's the disadvantage of getting combat shields? the 100 gas? WG costs 50 gas, so gas there. Time on tech lab? WG stalls halu (a very nice spell) and air upgrades too.

How about concussive shells? same gas cost, both take time over other researches, both are commonly gotten asap. Should blizz make conc. shells decrease marauder dps so it has a disadvantage? maybe slow the attack speed to balance out that BENEFIT they get for PAYING MONEY?
Edited by Artisian on 9/12/2012 9:58 AM PDT
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Posts: 450
I think of it more as just a basic mechanic of the race, like having queens at your hatcheries. There's no reason NOT to have one because it's part of the basic way of playing the race.


That's not true, most zergs will opt to only have 3-4 queens injecting no matter how many hatches they have.

But I agree with OP. Warp gate needs to have a downside.


Well, I more just meant having queens at ALL. What's the downside? There isn't one. It's just a basic component of the race.

Either way it's clear that the OP isn't just speaking for all protoss players. Just a weird, vocal minority. :P
Edited by EmptyMind on 9/12/2012 3:16 PM PDT
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Posts: 66
It would be one thing if this was a balance issue (albeit far too late in the design stage of sc2 to change) but instead, this is a vague suggestion that it would be more fun (??) to not use warpgates, or to have to choose. Nah, no thanks, doesn't sound interesting.

I assume from blizzards perspective, if you are going to add a new element to the game to make it more dynamic and fun, you aren't going to do it by taking the very fundamental elements of a race away from it. Do you REALLY think that anyone would be happy to see this change? It is a nerf, that would only happen for balance reasons that do not exist. The game may not be balanced, but it isn't so absurdly broken that blizz needs to throw away the skeleton of a race rather than just tweaking a unit here and there...
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Posts: 33
Justn throwing this out there. If you look at the number of posts ROCK has posted on lately, there are none here. He has currently only commented on HotS stuff because that is blizz's biggest concern right now. If you really want blizz to see a post then post it in HotS. That being said I recall a post by ROCK stating that they are not going to be changing warpgates/gateways. No I don't have a quote I just remember reading it somewhere here on the forums a couple days ago.
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Posts: 763
09/12/2012 12:03 AMPosted by Zuul
Gateways are boring.
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Posts: 743
Why should Warp Gates have a tradeoff when not using add-ons or queens provide no such equalizations?
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Posts: 15
WARPGATES ARE NOT BROKEN. Do not try to fix what is not broken. Reverting back to a gateway produces no useful advantage whatsoever.

The process of advancing to warpgates does not relate to any other trait of any other race.

GEEZ....
Edited by ezgoin on 9/12/2012 11:22 PM PDT
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Posts: 10,543
Is this some masked way to say that you're not very good at spending your money, so you want to queue units up in gateways?
Edited by Sidewinder on 9/12/2012 11:26 PM PDT
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Posts: 971
Warpgate is an upgrade. Gateways are not supposed to be as good as Warpgate.

People simply think they're supposed to be because there exists a button to turn them back to Gateways.
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Posts: 209
I'm not sure why, but I've only seen low leagues argue against improving the race in this regard.

Probably because there is a correlation between skill level and understanding/knowledge of the game.

Why anyone would argue for a dumbed-down/easier game is beyond me.
Edited by Jaycee on 10/16/2012 5:07 PM PDT
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Posts: 971
Jaycee.

Incentivizing a less dynamic production style will not result in more complex gaming. Just because you have the option of choosing between a complex system (Warpgates) and a simplistic system (Gateways) doesn't mean that choice results in a net gain of complexity. When you incentivize simplistic production style, gameplay ends up being more dumbed-down simplistic, regardless of how powerful the units that come out are.
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Posts: 952
The advantage of gateways is that the units come at full health and can't die while warping in XD, its an upgrade not a trade-off like someone said though
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