StarCraft® II

That same 3 hatch roachling zvp build

Posts: 14,401
(WINGS OF LIBERTY NOT HEART OF THE SWARM. OLD POST.)

I am still doing it. and it is still working.
if you ever get angry at zvp and just want a couple of free wins, this is your build. I stopped doing it for a while because I wanted to learn how to play macro ZvP instead of cheesing every game, and now I'm sick of macro ZvP so I'm back to cheesing. it's much easier.

3 hatcheries, 1 queen, 24 drones. 6 roaches and 20 speedlings with continuous reinforcements cracking open their base at 7:45ish. They can defend it if they build and finish 5 cannons. If they start the cannons while your roaches reach their watchtower, it's already too late, they need to start the cannons (and sentries for stalling) much earlier, but they have no reason to believe that you are cheesing, because your queen denies him from scouting your main, and you have a 3rd hatchery.

http://drop.sc/257589
http://drop.sc/257590
http://drop.sc/257591
http://drop.sc/257592
http://drop.sc/257593
http://drop.sc/257594
http://drop.sc/257595
http://drop.sc/257597

Here are 8 games from the last few days. I don't need to cherrypick the good ones, these are every single game where I did this build in zvp in my last few ladder runs.

There is one loss. Shocking, I know, but it's because I screwed up the build and my roach warren was late. If you find the loss, compare the roach warren timing to the other games, and compare the attack timing. There's at least one or two other games of players doing the same build as that guy, but when my attack is crisper it still works.

fast easy wins.

zerg imba!
Edited by Oboeman on 8/13/2014 12:42 PM PDT
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Posts: 1,717
I am still doing it. and it is still working.
if you ever get angry at zvp and just want a couple of free wins, this is your build. I stopped doing it for a while because I wanted to learn how to play macro ZvP instead of cheesing every game, and now I'm sick of macro ZvP so I'm back to cheesing. it's much easier.

3 hatcheries, 1 queen, 24 drones. 6 roaches and 20 speedlings with continuous reinforcements cracking open their base at 7:45ish. They can defend it if they build and finish 5 cannons. If they start the cannons while your roaches reach their watchtower, it's already too late, they need to start the cannons (and sentries for stalling) much earlier, but they have no reason to believe that you are cheesing, because your queen denies him from scouting your main, and you have a 3rd hatchery.

http://drop.sc/257589
http://drop.sc/257590
http://drop.sc/257591
http://drop.sc/257592
http://drop.sc/257593
http://drop.sc/257594
http://drop.sc/257595
http://drop.sc/257597

Here are 8 games from the last few days. I don't need to cherrypick the good ones, these are every single game where I did this build in zvp in my last few ladder runs.

There is one loss. Shocking, I know, but it's because I screwed up the build and my roach warren was late. If you find the loss, compare the roach warren timing to the other games, and compare the attack timing. There's at least one or two other games of players doing the same build as that guy, but when my attack is crisper it still works.

fast easy wins.

zerg imba!


I mix in a variant of this build and Zenio's 3 hatch bling bust when I get tired of macro games against protoss. I don't like doing too much of either though because I want to improve my macro game in ZvP!

I tend to have most success with this build against standard protoss play. Early warp gate (e.g. 4 gate +1, etc) can hold it off due to the early units. Most 8+ minute warp gate builds die to it. Stargate builds might hold it off, but they usually lose the natural. Not watched Oboeman's replays, but make sure to move drones and the queen from the main to the natural to make the natural look reasonably saturated in case of a later scouting probe.
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Posts: 6,410
Huh, I've been trying out the early speed style of ZvP recently because it's a bit safer earlier on and I feel like you can drone even harder after making a round or 2 of lings. But this sounds like fun.
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Posts: 326
How do you scout this correctly?

It seems similar to zenio's baneling bust, but with roaches instead of banelings but I'm not an expert on zerg BO's.

I normally do a stalker poke for a third... and then I do something that high players don't like and I poke it in the natural, and sometimes it dies :-/.

Is it lack drones at the at a certain timing, More than 6 lings?

You don't have to tell me. But I lose to zerg cheese, but I find it more fun than playing a macro zerg. Not that I win more, it's just not boring for the first 3 bases. :P, and doesn't involve broodlords...
Edited by ishiki on 9/25/2012 1:42 AM PDT
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Posts: 3,261
I am still doing it. and it is still working.
if you ever get angry at zvp and just want a couple of free wins, this is your build. I stopped doing it for a while because I wanted to learn how to play macro ZvP instead of cheesing every game, and now I'm sick of macro ZvP so I'm back to cheesing. it's much easier.

3 hatcheries, 1 queen, 24 drones. 6 roaches and 20 speedlings with continuous reinforcements cracking open their base at 7:45ish. They can defend it if they build and finish 5 cannons. If they start the cannons while your roaches reach their watchtower, it's already too late, they need to start the cannons (and sentries for stalling) much earlier, but they have no reason to believe that you are cheesing, because your queen denies him from scouting your main, and you have a 3rd hatchery.

http://drop.sc/257589
http://drop.sc/257590
http://drop.sc/257591
http://drop.sc/257592
http://drop.sc/257593
http://drop.sc/257594
http://drop.sc/257595
http://drop.sc/257597

Here are 8 games from the last few days. I don't need to cherrypick the good ones, these are every single game where I did this build in zvp in my last few ladder runs.

There is one loss. Shocking, I know, but it's because I screwed up the build and my roach warren was late. If you find the loss, compare the roach warren timing to the other games, and compare the attack timing. There's at least one or two other games of players doing the same build as that guy, but when my attack is crisper it still works.

fast easy wins.

zerg imba!


Thanks, I'm gonna try this out. Kinda boring to always play macro every game. How long have you been using this build?
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Posts: 14,401
How do you scout this correctly?

It seems similar to zenio's baneling bust, but with roaches instead of banelings but I'm not an expert on zerg BO's.

I normally do a stalker poke for a third... and then I do something that high players don't like and I poke it in the natural, and sometimes it dies :-/.

Is it lack drones at the at a certain timing, More than 6 lings?

You don't have to tell me. But I lose to zerg cheese, but I find it more fun than playing a macro zerg. Not that I win more, it's just not boring for the first 3 bases. :P, and doesn't involve broodlords...


The standard timing for the zealot/stalker poke will see the roaches, but it will be too late to react. Seeing speed finish on the lings might be a bit of a tell, but I don't think there's enough time for that either. Ironically, I've started delaying speed (getting it at 150-180 gas instead of 100) so that protoss don't see it finish so early.

Doubling back with the probe to see the 3rd gives no info. IF you can get it into the main to see the geyser, that is a huge tell, but the queen should block you 95% of the time. However, I start my geyser before the queen finishes, as long as I've seen the probe moving out to check my 3rd base, because I know the probe can't get back before the queen finishes. So there is a small window where the probe can get in and see the gas. BUT in doing so, you sacrifice the probe and don't get to scout the 3rd. It's possible for me to delay the gas until the queen finishes, but that hurts the roach count, or forces me to double gas, which ultimately hurts either the roach count or the ling count.
Keeping the probe in the main longer will either scout or weaken this build, but it takes away your chance to delay the 3rd in the event that the zerg player is being standard.

If you do that, you need to send out a 2nd probe to scout the 3rd.

If you chronoboost a zealot immediately and send it straight for the natural, it should see a low drone count, but I always have 4 lings to try to catch it, and my queen may help finish it off before it gets enough info. If you chronoboost two zealots, I can't stop them with lings, but it might be too late. I do transfer some drones to the natural, but it's not usually fully saturated.

for what it's worth, many of these guys didn't even scout my 3rd, which means I could have done this all-in off of two bases, which is even stronger, but is easily scouted.

tend to have most success with this build against standard protoss play. Early warp gate (e.g. 4 gate +1, etc) can hold it off due to the early units. Most 8+ minute warp gate builds die to it. Stargate builds might hold it off, but they usually lose the natural.

4gate +1 warpgate is still late enough that it dies.
Stargate will probably get a void ray out to kill your roaches, but only after you've breached his wall and flooded lings everywhere, and the lings are more important. It's important to try to get some units up his ramp so he can't wall it or forcefield it to save himself.
It seems like one of those 7:30 warpgate builds should be able to hold, but from my experience they don't, mainly because they almost always cut sentries, and half the time they are trying to be aggressive with their first 2-3 units, which just gives them away for free. They also tend to skip +1.
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Posts: 14,401
When attacking, DO NOT HUMP FORCEFIELDS

Your roaches want to immediately target fire the first sentry behind the wall, and he has to waste his first forcefield to block the hole, because they always leave a hole. It's okay because you don't want to go through the hole yet. Next, your roaches target his cannon, because that is his primary DPS. All your lings should be attacking the buildings in his wall, not trying to run past. As soon as the cannon is dead, have the roaches finish off his forge (weakest biggest hole). Then get your lings in and kill off his units and warping cannons. Have a look at the pylons, but they are not a priority unless there is only one of them.

target priority:
1 - first sentry
2 - first cannon
3 - forge and pylon in the wall to create access for lings
4 - warping cannons, other units, probes
5 - get a few lings up his ramp into the main to scout and prevent him from re-walling
6 - rally and a-move
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Posts: 1,717
How do you scout this correctly?

It seems similar to zenio's baneling bust, but with roaches instead of banelings but I'm not an expert on zerg BO's.

I normally do a stalker poke for a third... and then I do something that high players don't like and I poke it in the natural, and sometimes it dies :-/.

Is it lack drones at the at a certain timing, More than 6 lings?

You don't have to tell me. But I lose to zerg cheese, but I find it more fun than playing a macro zerg. Not that I win more, it's just not boring for the first 3 bases. :P, and doesn't involve broodlords...


If you scout an early gas (zerg player needs a gas around the 4 minute mark...4:30 or so at the latest), then an early bust is a possibility. Scout the third for drones around the 6:30 mark. If few to no drones at the third, this build is very likely. A good zerg who plays macro should have started droning his third by the 6 minute mark and should have a decent number of drones at the third by 6:30-7 minutes. If you scout almost no drones at the third around 6:30, then hang near the third till 7. If you still see no drones or queen at the third, build a few extra cannons.
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Posts: 4,719
If I am ever on a wining streak and want a horrible, frustrating loss then this is my build =).
Edited by tBz on 9/25/2012 9:38 AM PDT
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Posts: 11,503
So if you let them scout it, they build five cannons, and instead of aggression you go for macro, do they immediately lose?
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Posts: 14,401
No. If you choose to abort, you are still behind, because you have mined gas, delayed your 2nd queen, and basically cut drones. Depending on when you abort, it may be a bit more recoverable, but if you already have a bunch of gas mined, your economy is pretty gimped.

If they scout your roaches, keep gunning for it. You have a better chance of breaking him than cutting the zerglings and droning up. If he scouts your gas early (which probably means you made a mistake with your queen), you have an option of pulling off gas and macroing, but still 9 players out of 10 won't take the threat seriously enough because of the 3rd hatch, and will still die miserably.

You can check his ramp for extra cannons with zerglings before committing to making the units, but you've already screwed your economy. You at least have a 3rd hatch, but that doesn't mean much if you are 20 workers behind. They cut gateways and units to get the cannons out, so you have a longer droning window, but not long enough to catch up, I don't think.

but that is the beauty of it. how do they scout it?

currently, it doesn't get scouted. If everyone starts doing it, then I'm sure people will be able to scout and defend it, but they have to invest more into scouting than they are currently doing, and our macro play gets stronger.

It is still an all-in, and trying to transition out of it isn't usually the smartest plan.
Edited by Oboeman on 9/25/2012 10:58 AM PDT
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Posts: 1,926
I've done the Zenio bling bust in ZvP and it's really effective. Most Protoss on NA don't seem to ever check the third for drones, so it makes it hard to scout for them.
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Posts: 14,401
The main different between this and the zenio bust is that you will still probably win even if the protoss had blindly chronoboosted 3 sentries, because you will break down the wall over his forcefields and make more holes to waste his energy.

I'm pretty sure by going baneling instead of roach you can hit significantly earlier (because the money is spent outside of his base and doesn't have to walk across the map), but it's more vulnerable to sentries. It is definitely a great build, as well. You'd probably have pretty much the same win rate (approximately 100% :p) because no one boosts 3 sentries blindly. it delays their greedy robos.
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Posts: 6
I haven't watched all of the replays... but in the ones i saw the protoss didn't scout after he saw you go three base..... In my league(which seems similar to yours) protoss players always attack with zealot stalker or 2 zealot stalker just to kill drones/queens and to check the tech and drone count you have.

This might work in the lower levels where protoss doesn't scout post hatcheries... but I wouldn't recommend using this as a primary build.
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Posts: 11,503
No. If you choose to abort, you are still behind, because you have mined gas, delayed your 2nd queen, and basically cut drones.

I know. Just feel like Zerg all-ins are really all-in, while Terran or Protoss could fake it then macro...
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Posts: 1,717
09/25/2012 02:50 PMPosted by Fawxkitteh
No. If you choose to abort, you are still behind, because you have mined gas, delayed your 2nd queen, and basically cut drones.

I know. Just feel like Zerg all-ins are really all-in, while Terran or Protoss could fake it then macro...


I have not seen too many 2 base terran all-in plays. The 1 base ones are pretty uncommon now days too (might just be the diamond range terrans). Protoss 2 base all-in plays require economic damage or they lose.

Most 2 base protoss plays cut probes at around 40-44 from what I have seen. A defending zerg off 3 bases can drone up to 50-55 (and sometimes even 60) before making a lot of defensive units. If you defend the 2 base all-in play without taking economic damage, you can greatly delay the protoss third and take a fourth yourself. At this point, your hive tech (broodlord/infestor) will be out before the protoss gets his deathball push, do the game is basically over. Sometimes you can even end the game earlier with a roach/ling counter, but this is more risky as you can lose your advantage quickly.

Zerg all-ins are a bit more all-in than a protoss all-in since you cut drones much quicker, but any all-in is at a significant disadvantage if significant economic damage is not done.
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Posts: 14,401
I haven't watched all of the replays... but in the ones i saw the protoss didn't scout after he saw you go three base..... In my league(which seems similar to yours) protoss players always attack with zealot stalker or 2 zealot stalker just to kill drones/queens and to check the tech and drone count you have.

This might work in the lower levels where protoss doesn't scout post hatcheries... but I wouldn't recommend using this as a primary build.


There are some games there where they move out with the zealot and stalker, I kill it in the middle of the map (sometimes hiding the roaches, but not always). The stalker poke is way too late to be able to identify and stop this.


but I wouldn't recommend using this as a primary build.

having your primary build be cheese is usually a bad idea, and this is no exception. but it is a good cheese.
Edited by Oboeman on 9/25/2012 7:25 PM PDT
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09/25/2012 07:09 PMPosted by Logan

I know. Just feel like Zerg all-ins are really all-in, while Terran or Protoss could fake it then macro...


I have not seen too many 2 base terran all-in plays. The 1 base ones are pretty uncommon now days too (might just be the diamond range terrans). Protoss 2 base all-in plays require economic damage or they lose.


Go watch Col.Heart in the GSL. His variety of Terran all ins is nothing short of astounding.
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Posts: 14,401
played 2 more protoss today

http://drop.sc/258042
http://drop.sc/258043

In the daybreak game, something interesting happened. He scouted my third (but never confirmed my natural, though the timing on the 3rd should be a clear indicator that natural came first). He sent his zealot out to scout, and I trapped and killed it with 6 slow lings. He has no information other than the fact that he saw a 3rd hatchery and there are 6 slow lings on the map.

He builds 2 extra cannons and starts chronoboosting sentries.

then I kill him anyway (lol). He left holes in his forcefields which made it a pretty straightforward win. If he had successfully forcefielded, I still think I'd win because he didn't have enough gateways up yet, but it could have been a different game. A hold wouldn't be entirely out of the question. 5 cannons would definitely hold, 4 probably. 3 is only a maybe, and a pretty weak one at that.

do you think 6 lings is a good enough cue for protoss to build 2 more cannons?
I wish every protoss would build two cannons every time I show 6 lings in response to a zealot. It would make macro games a whole lot easier!
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Posts: 31
Do you have a good Terran all in?
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