StarCraft® II

My map-making retirement with feedback

Posts: 24
Hello everyone, I posted yesterday a blog on teamliquid.net about my retirement:
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=371545

Many people wanted to know the reasons of my lack of interest in this game, I post them here so the ones who are mainly concerned can read them. I reduced my subjective opinion as much as possible.

- A-move units with zero micro needed to do a lot of damage: colossus

- Units that forces a very specific counter otherwise you have high chances to lose: colossus->viking/corruptor

- Units push themselves, even enemy units, this causes to never be sure if your unit wall is ling proof

- Moving units have a smaller footprint than a static one moving ball armies are even smaller.

- The perfect pathing combined with unlimited selection, i think they must do unlimited selection with worse pathing to make more space between units OR perfect pathing with limited selection.

- Inability to move units between 2*2 buildings and bunkers. Supply depots wouldn't be needed at the bottom of main ramp.

- The spammable low tech anti-micro skills: forcefield and fungal , you can't counter them once you get caught. With brood war statis, you can save the units and about lockdown, it's hard to pull off and it's on only one unit.

- Smartcast, if there was no smartcast, spells could be much stronger because you would have to select spellcasters one by one. This could create comeback situations.

- Comebacks are only very rarely possible.

- The high number of workers needed per base, this causes to not need many bases spread out on the map. The high income rate is a big factor as well of not taking more than 3 bases.

- No highground advantage, the one in sc2 is only present in early game and is an illusion in the rest of the game. It causes terrain to not have much meaning.

- The big range of units compared to their radius, the consequence is too many units shoot at the same time and thus the dps rate of the army is huge.

- The dps rate causes players to not micro a lot

- There is no multiples battles occuring at the same time, and no, harass and drops are a different thing. The high dps rate causes that as well.

- Protoss early/mid game is balanced around the forcefield and forces them to take a very very close third base, you can't have too many paths leading to it otherwise a protoss can't forcefield everything.

- You can't place a lot of chokes in the middle of a map otherwise forcefields break everything (cloud kingdom is borderline on this subject)

- Every 4 players map with reflection symmetry must have close positions disabled because natural to natural distance is too short, it takes away a lot of diversity

- Units move too fast

- Tiny area control available, only tanks and swarm hosts can do it. Creep does it too but not very much.

- The only choke control unit/spell is the forcefield

- The terrain editor is extremely rigid, especially for ramps.

- The big size of expands, the resource gathering building having a 5*5 footprint

- Forcing 8 minerals, 2 gas expands

This list isn't complete, this is what i remember at this moment.
Edited by SUPEROUMAN on 9/26/2012 12:19 PM PDT
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Posts: 798
most of these seem like they're caused by your inability to become a better player.

good riddance.
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Posts: 3
most of these seem like they're caused by your inability to become a better player.

good riddance.


You realize he's the guy that made Cloud Kingdom and Testbug, right?
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Posts: 976
most of these seem like they're caused by your inability to become a better player.

good riddance.


You realize he's the guy that made Cloud Kingdom and Testbug, right?
He made popular maps. That means he's a pro player. I guess that's why IronmanSC was in platinum league.
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Posts: 9,755


You realize he's the guy that made Cloud Kingdom and Testbug, right?
He made popular maps. That means he's a pro player. I guess that's why IronmanSC was in platinum league.


Thanks for the maps have fun in what you do, if you return play some other races to get perspective vs just going off assumptions. Everything is OP when you don't know how to deal with it. Also if you main one race other races seem to have it EZ or can A-move.
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Posts: 5,878
Goodbye man, you'll always be remembered as one of the greatest mapmakers.
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Posts: 9
I would have to agree with some of the posts above and on reddit. It sounds like mostly he wants Broodwar 2.0 and thats not what Starcraft2 is. While respecting his ability to make great maps (cloud kingdom) I can't help but read the reasons listed in the post and think that. Like Dustin Browder has said " Broodwar was a great game. Go play it" Its not Starcraft2. It won't ever be Broodwar 2.0 and frankly, I wouldn't want it to be. It sounds like a post saying I'm 'retiring' from the game because it's not exactly like the original. Don't get me wrong, I played Broodwar and it was an amazing game. But it's not this game. I almost want to say you made a fool of yourself by posting in this tone, but I want to think that it wasn't your intention. GL in the future mate.
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Posts: 409

This list isn't complete, this is what i remember at this moment.


Please don't finish it, for I think this is the most pompous bit of writing I have seen today and I am an English teacher.
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Posts: 3
You guys seriously don't think one of the greatest mapmakers in this game's history doesn't understand very well about racial balance? That he doesn't get it? This guy probably knows as much or more about balance than the SC2 dev team.

These are very legitimate criticisms being levelled against a good game. If Blizzard wants to take SC2 and make it a great game, they need to listen to criticism, especially from some of their most intelligent and invested minds.

As for BW vs. SC2... BW is a superior game, and I'll bet anybody who has played/watched both and isn't under some kind of contract will tell you that. Because of bad net code (latency issue) it's very, very difficult to play SCBW online. There's also several bugs with Windows 7 that can damage the overall experience. BW isn't played because of these factors.

Also SC2 is getting sponsorships. Why? Because of hardware. Hardware companies (LG, Intel) love it when a new game is popular because that means people need to buy new hardware to play it, when people could be playing SCBW or CS1.6 or whatever excellent classic games. It's a scam. Sponsorships are needed to 'grow eSports', but at what cost? Pushing a new game(s) on us every 3-5 years, even some that are obviously inferior to the orginal?

His criticisms are all legitimate. SC2 is grossly inferior to BW, although it is still a very good game. Whether or not people will be willing to take their hands off their ears and listen is the only question.
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Posts: 1,868
:(
Now SUPEROUMAN,IronManSC,did ESV just die?
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Posts: 31
@Rolandtoke
How so?

He's just posting everything that pro players / TL map makers find wrong or boring with sc2.
Edited by Xiaon on 9/26/2012 12:57 PM PDT
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Posts: 64
I definitely respect this guys work, and I hope he goes on to do great things. I also hope he finds a game that he can love. I personally do not agree with his points because I did not play broodwar and I fell in love with SC2. I don't want to change SC2 into broodwar. Hope this guy the best tho! mad respect.
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Posts: 31
@PunOfASentry

You seem to grossly mistake his post. He's pointing out that the gameplay of SC2, regardless of brood war, isn't interesting or very dynamic. Clumped up units, auto casting, no high ground advantage, etc.
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Posts: 2
09/26/2012 12:48 PMPosted by PunOfASentry
I would have to agree with some of the posts above and on reddit. It sounds like mostly he wants Broodwar 2.0 and thats not what Starcraft2 is. While respecting his ability to make great maps (cloud kingdom) I can't help but read the reasons listed in the post and think that. Like Dustin Browder has said " Broodwar was a great game. Go play it" Its not Starcraft2. It won't ever be Broodwar 2.0 and frankly, I wouldn't want it to be. It sounds like a post saying I'm 'retiring' from the game because it's not exactly like the original. Don't get me wrong, I played Broodwar and it was an amazing game. But it's not this game. I almost want to say you made a fool of yourself by posting in this tone, but I want to think that it wasn't your intention. GL in the future mate.


Obviously SC2 isn't currently BW 2.0 ...although I have to ask the question why shouldn't it be? I think if you asked most professionals they would overwhelmingly say that BW was a better game than SC2. What's wrong with trying to make SC2 as good or better than the original? It is supposed to be the successor. I'm not saying remake BW in SC2 I'm saying try to take all the greatness BW had and improve upon it with SC2. Settling for just "good" and not "outstanding" doesn't seem very logical to me.
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Posts: 142
I agree about force field wholeheartedly and another thing about protoss that makes me angry is vortex. Personally id like to see protoss having to work for wins a bit more which is an entire problem with game design. Colossus is also pretty dumb because its expensive doesn't require micro and is really good so I agree with that too.

I also agree with that you cant come back from a deficit but with the exception of Terran in WoL but maybe that will change in HotS. Its just because Terran has planetary fortresses, tanks and marines so they can always be cost effective vs Zerg in particular. Maybe with the swarm host we can kill them off if we are that far ahead.

As for Zerg the infestor is pretty damn good but it is badly needed otherwise we couldn't win games. Its game breaking both for and against it. You cant just remove it because it would make Broodlords bad, Ultras bad and it would make Zerg not cost effective any more when you are behind or far enough ahead to afford enough infestors to change the game like that. The reason why broodlords would be bad is marines could just stim under, stalkers could just blink under, mass vikings would be really good and it would even make void rays a really nice option vs your massively expensive late game army.

The reason why ultras would suck even more than they do at the moment is because you could micro away and they would never take any damage from them and your really expensive units would be counted by t1 and t2 units that cost a whole lot less.

Id prefer not to have to use infestors but its entirely needed going by the game design.
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Posts: 2
After reading this thread, I will never again post on these forums. You people sicken me. Many (including me) asked for his opinion and he gave it in the most constructive place to leave feedback on the game.

Maybe his changes aren't right for SC2, but maybe this will inspire a group of developers to go out and create a real spiritual successor to BroodWar and we can have an actually diverse RTS marketplace instead of the total stagnation we have right now.

Good luck to you SUPEROUMAN!
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Posts: 3
@Tuxedo

There is a fallacy that because something is good, it is impossible that something could be better. If you've never played or seen SCBW, then how can you say you don't want SC2 to be more like BW? That's like saying you don't want a million dollars because you don't know what it would be like to be a millionaire...
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Posts: 1,868
^^I just said bye :(
Also I have to agree mapmaking is super boring.You dont get paid much either for a job that is so important.Remembered as one the greatest mapmakers of SC2.
Edited by AntareSpicA on 9/26/2012 1:13 PM PDT
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