StarCraft® II

My map-making retirement with feedback

Posts: 1,105
09/26/2012 01:06 PMPosted by BCPermaFrost
PEOPLE, the op is more or less complaining about the restrictions of map making. The fact that the concepts of the game are so engraved into the system that it makes map making terribly terribly boring. The metagame for BW was always changing due to the fact that you were mostly fighting the game to make the units work, so the maps could be alot more diverse and unique. There are no more maps that can be unique since they all have to look the same.


This x1000000
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Posts: 1,893
Yeah, I agree with you on alot of points, I feel like blizzard isnt being drastic enough with the expansion from a game design view

most of these seem like they're caused by your inability to become a better player.

good riddance.


says the platinum league player with only 370 league games.... This guy has made maps featured in tournaments ranging from MLG to GSL and pro league.... shut your mouth and think before you speak....


He could be bronze and that would not make his statement any less true. People could be grandmaster league and still QQ for stupid things.

You guys seriously don't think one of the greatest mapmakers in this game's history doesn't understand very well about racial balance? That he doesn't get it? This guy probably knows as much or more about balance than the SC2 dev team.


Well he proved you wrong by making this op. The only balance-related things he needs to understand to make good maps is how races react to chocke points and spawn locations. The rest is pretty much just creativity.
Edited by Obliterator on 9/26/2012 1:29 PM PDT
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@Oblivirator-this
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09/26/2012 12:17 PMPosted by SUPEROUMAN
- A-move units with zero micro needed to do a lot of damage: colossus


what about marines, zerglings, roaches, immortals, marauders, zealots, thors, and ultralisks?

09/26/2012 12:17 PMPosted by SUPEROUMAN
- Units that forces a very specific counter otherwise you have high chances to lose: colossus->viking/corruptor


What about baneling drops? fungal + nural? how about ghosts and flanks? Do you think maybe banshees would preform well vs colo?

09/26/2012 12:17 PMPosted by SUPEROUMAN
- Units push themselves, even enemy units, this causes to never be sure if your unit wall is ling proof


2 units instead of the usual one will make a wall lingproof, usually you actually will loose too many lings for the forcing to be worthwhile if there are 2.

09/26/2012 12:17 PMPosted by SUPEROUMAN
- Inability to move units between 2*2 buildings and bunkers. Supply depots wouldn't be needed at the bottom of main ramp.


currently it's actually 3 2*2 buildings to block a ramp. Still cheap, but more than 2. 2 bunkers must have 2 scvs that are vulnerable to a queen to be built. the queen buff probably makes the neutral depo unnecessary.

09/26/2012 12:17 PMPosted by SUPEROUMAN
- The spammable low tech anti-micro skills: forcefield and fungal , you can't counter them once you get caught. With brood war statis, you can save the units and about lockdown, it's hard to pull off and it's on only one unit.


Forcefield and fungal don't deny the units action, just movement. They still take, and do, damage to things in range. Really, all they punish is low micro melee units and other short range attacks. Forces diversity in armies imo. Also, lair + infestation pit is not low tech.

09/26/2012 12:17 PMPosted by SUPEROUMAN
- Smartcast, if there was no smartcast, spells could be much stronger because you would have to select spellcasters one by one. This could create comeback situations.


comebacks happen. Just not obviously and not as often, mostly because "standard" play is still developing stability. Currently the believed standard has BO losses, and those builds have BO losses, etc. When we have stable builds, we can get comebacks. Smartcast is a good feature, and necessary with how fast combat happens.

09/26/2012 12:17 PMPosted by SUPEROUMAN
- The high number of workers needed per base, this causes to not need many bases spread out on the map. The high income rate is a big factor as well of not taking more than 3 bases.


Actually, the ability to max and remax on 3 bases is what makes 3 bases the current norm. Once people learn to counter, and re-counter, and counter that counter more bases become required for the next wave. Currently, someone always messes up on that second remax. Note that 2 base was the normal max for a long time, since you could get 200/200 off it, and now it's 3 base and 2 200/200 battles every game.

09/26/2012 12:17 PMPosted by SUPEROUMAN
- The dps rate causes players to not micro a lot


I always thought it was the opposite. Since if you have 1 unit not firing, you are losing A TON of dps relative to your opponent, making positioning and dancing far more important.

09/26/2012 12:17 PMPosted by SUPEROUMAN
- There is no multiples battles occuring at the same time, and no, harass and drops are a different thing. The high dps rate causes that as well.


This is mostly a playstyle choice, not really one forced by the game. Terran has many times where they are microing a drop through your main while holding an attack on the front or doing a runby at a third. Protoss can do the same, but rarely does due to the insane micro needed for many of their units to be efficient.

09/26/2012 12:17 PMPosted by SUPEROUMAN
- You can't place a lot of chokes in the middle of a map otherwise forcefields break everything (cloud kingdom is borderline on this subject)


massive units. Also, flanking paths and backstabs. If I, the protoss, ff in my units in mid, and you then run around with your remaining 20 lings for my natural, I can't do a thing except hope my next warpin round is soon, and enough to hold.

09/26/2012 12:17 PMPosted by SUPEROUMAN
- Every 4 players map with reflection symmetry must have close positions disabled because natural to natural distance is too short, it takes away a lot of diversity


Only if the map lets it be too short. I'm sure you can make a bigger map.

09/26/2012 12:17 PMPosted by SUPEROUMAN
- Tiny area control available, only tanks and swarm hosts can do it. Creep does it too but not very much.


warpins, tempests, ms core (as long as there is energy), terran also has widow mines now doing this, and burrow definitely gives some area control.

09/26/2012 12:17 PMPosted by SUPEROUMAN
- The only choke control unit/spell is the forcefield


fungal, concussive shells, blinding cloud, pdd or auto turrets, vortex, and hallucination. surely you consider at least 3 of those able to help control chokes.

I accept you are more knowlegable and experienced with this game, but this looks like rage whining. Almost all your points are blatant exaggerations even a bronzie could correct.
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Posts: 405
Hello everyone, I posted yesterday a blog on teamliquid.net about my retirement:
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=371545

Many people wanted to know the reasons of my lack of interest in this game, I post them here so the ones who are mainly concerned can read them. I reduced my subjective opinion as much as possible.

- A-move units with zero micro needed to do a lot of damage: colossus

- Units that forces a very specific counter otherwise you have high chances to lose: colossus->viking/corruptor

- Units push themselves, even enemy units, this causes to never be sure if your unit wall is ling proof

- Moving units have a smaller footprint than a static one moving ball armies are even smaller.

- The perfect pathing combined with unlimited selection, i think they must do unlimited selection with worse pathing to make more space between units OR perfect pathing with limited selection.

- Inability to move units between 2*2 buildings and bunkers. Supply depots wouldn't be needed at the bottom of main ramp.

- The spammable low tech anti-micro skills: forcefield and fungal , you can't counter them once you get caught. With brood war statis, you can save the units and about lockdown, it's hard to pull off and it's on only one unit.

- Smartcast, if there was no smartcast, spells could be much stronger because you would have to select spellcasters one by one. This could create comeback situations.

- Comebacks are only very rarely possible.

- The high number of workers needed per base, this causes to not need many bases spread out on the map. The high income rate is a big factor as well of not taking more than 3 bases.

- No highground advantage, the one in sc2 is only present in early game and is an illusion in the rest of the game. It causes terrain to not have much meaning.

- The big range of units compared to their radius, the consequence is too many units shoot at the same time and thus the dps rate of the army is huge.

- The dps rate causes players to not micro a lot

- There is no multiples battles occuring at the same time, and no, harass and drops are a different thing. The high dps rate causes that as well.

- Protoss early/mid game is balanced around the forcefield and forces them to take a very very close third base, you can't have too many paths leading to it otherwise a protoss can't forcefield everything.

- You can't place a lot of chokes in the middle of a map otherwise forcefields break everything (cloud kingdom is borderline on this subject)

- Every 4 players map with reflection symmetry must have close positions disabled because natural to natural distance is too short, it takes away a lot of diversity

- Units move too fast

- Tiny area control available, only tanks and swarm hosts can do it. Creep does it too but not very much.

- The only choke control unit/spell is the forcefield

- The terrain editor is extremely rigid, especially for ramps.

- The big size of expands, the resource gathering building having a 5*5 footprint

- Forcing 8 minerals, 2 gas expands

This list isn't complete, this is what i remember at this moment.


Well for the most part you're describing Brood War, which I love, and I know some pros on prominent teams still play, or have played within the last 6 months.

Regardless, Blizz will never bring that back unless sponsorship dollars went back to reviving Brood War. This would take an MLG, IPL, Dreamhack, etc...

They won't do that though so that's a big dream. You know, what can you do? Seems like we're stuck with a good RTS game instead of a great one.
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Posts: 409
@Rolandtoke
How so?

He's just posting everything that pro players / TL map makers find wrong or boring with sc2.


Because all people do is QQ and talk about leaving. It's like this with the NFL and all the fantasy football nerds, too. It's nothing but pointless.
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Posts: 3,265
Map makers think too much of themselves. So much drama about their maps, announcing retirements, streaming map creation, and map shows.. Come on man, people appreciate your maps but as soon as anyone does anything they have to be someone.

Colossus requires micro. You're bad if you let them choose their targets, because they will hit the front of an army and not use their entire splash potential. And a lot of your complaints are basically wanting this game to function like BW. There's still a very long way to go for players in terms of micro skill in SC2.

SC2 continues to evolve greatly in player skill and entertainment. BW fanboys used to believe that the game was volatile. Yet, the best players are winning consistently and the bad ones are now left in the dust. BW fanboys used to believe this game is all about deathball vs deathball. But nowadays the best players are multitasking around the map the entire game, and deathballs never win at the highest level.

You have a lot of stupid complaints like units move too quick. This is a fast paced game, it's intended to be faster than BW. Sucks that you don't like it, but you probably won't like anything that isn't BW. And I can't believe people still complain about smartcast. It doesn't change anything at the highest level of play. Making a game difficult for the sake of making it difficult isn't the right way to design games anymore. This is a fast paced RTS game, you win through decision making and multi tasking, not by individually clicking units faster.

If you want this game to be BW, take a break for a while. Players are getting better, it's obvious. The level play increases significantly each year. With the addition of the great minds of Kespa players and HOTS I think SC2 will become increasingly competitive and exciting.
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Posts: 21
you people realise that he's not saying "change the game" he's giving reasons as to why he no longer enjoys playing the game, because alot of people asked him. quit yo !@#$%ing
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Posts: 6
Good. Leave. Nobody likes to see garbage posts like this. Go play LOL or something.
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Posts: 343
You don't like SC2?

Go and play Brood War. Is exactly how you want.

Have fun.

Simple like that. Not need to an uproar.
Edited by Mikau on 9/26/2012 1:44 PM PDT
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Posts: 116
I don't think the facts in the post are %100 spot on, but the spirit I mostly agree with.

- Units push themselves, even enemy units, this causes to never be sure if your unit wall is ling proof

I'm not sure about this. You can't push enemy units unless your units overlap by some ability or strange scenario. Not standard movement. I'm always sure about my walls being ling proof, I don't really see the issue.


- Moving units have a smaller footprint than a static one moving ball armies are even smaller.

I'm not sure where this idea came from. Units have the same size whether they are moving or not, don't they? I would like if they'd fix the visual circles around the units to align properly with their actual pathing sizes, though. When you do this you realize just how small the units actually are, and it feels pretty silly.

- The high number of workers needed per base, this causes to not need many bases spread out on the map. The high income rate is a big factor as well of not taking more than 3 bases.

This one's probably based in Barrin's post which is based on false information. Multiple other sources, including but not limited to Lalush's studies and my own, have proven that the income rates are nearly identical in both games when it comes to minerals. The extra three workers for gas are the only significant change.

^ These are just the ones I'm not sure about.

Some of the other points are things that are different from BW, but probably for good reason to make the game more accessible (like the building footpring sizes always matching their pathing application - other than the assimilators, extractors and refineries which I wish they would fix to be symmetrical - and smartcasting.)

Many, though, I %100 agree with and don't see any downside to. The Colossus and counter-units, and units that are too good without micro, and fungal and force fields. All that sort of stuff, I %100 agree with and think needs to be changed. These are somewhat debatable as to whether they are a good thing or not (personally I don't mind them that much, but it doesn't matter because there's not much chance of them changing.)

I don't think units need worse pathing but I do think that armies take up too small of an area. Even from a casual perspective, it's bad because your army feels small even when you're maxed out, and it doesn't feel very epic. I'd much rather have a much harder to manage, much larger army, from a casual player's perspective. They should at least increase the radius of many of the units (ESPECIALLY ROACHES) and maybe put in some sort of passive spreading which still feels smooth.

I wouldn't mind lower DPS, armies which spread out more, less counter-reliant designs and more micro. More space control would be great. More comebacks, etc. These are things I do hope will change.
Edited by Gfire on 9/26/2012 1:46 PM PDT
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09/26/2012 01:34 PMPosted by Bash
you people realise that he's not saying "change the game" he's giving reasons as to why he no longer enjoys playing the game, because alot of people asked him. quit yo !@#$%ing


Well those are pretty bad reasons. When I get bored of a game, I don't claim that it's the game fault. That's just stupid. The guy just don't like the game. This is a matter of taste, not facts.
Edited by Obliterator on 9/26/2012 1:48 PM PDT
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Posts: 8,360
Pretty weak reasons to "retire". So basically your reasons why you don't like this game is because:
1) protoss imba, and
2) it isn't broodwar

Who are you trying to kid here, you are just bored of the game, we don't need your BS reasons. Great map, weak argument.
Edited by TechNo on 9/26/2012 1:47 PM PDT
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Posts: 21
Regardless, Blizz will never bring that back unless sponsorship dollars went back to reviving Brood War. This would take an MLG, IPL, Dreamhack, etc...

They won't do that though so that's a big dream. You know, what can you do? Seems like we're stuck with a good RTS game instead of a great one.


Blizzard wont bring it back, period. Customers are with sc2, and if people want brood war they can still buy/play it.

Unless you meant like, tournaments and stuff? because that has little/nothing to do with blizz, but afaik the viwership just isnt the same, no matter how great the game is, its still outdated visually, and people love watching lasers and pewpew
Edited by Bash on 9/26/2012 1:53 PM PDT
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Posts: 258
09/26/2012 01:30 PMPosted by Gentso
Colossus requires micro


stopped reading
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Posts: 409
You know what this is right? It's him showing off how much he knows about the game and how he's just so much better than it.

But it's a LIE. It's a !@#$ING LIE.
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Posts: 8,360
I mean you could have retired with a little more dignity without whining that sc2 isn't the same as broodwar.
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