StarCraft® II

My map-making retirement with feedback

Posts: 1,752
All your points are true but thats what makes this game so good
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Posts: 4,993
What a convoluted rant of whininess.
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Posts: 837

This list isn't complete, this is what i remember at this moment.


Please don't finish it, for I think this is the most pompous bit of writing I have seen today and I am an English teacher.


You missed a comma in that sentence, Mr. English Teacher. :D
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Posts: 667
I wouldn't have come back here to post, but I saw SUPEROUMAN post on reddit, and then I came here. I realized I never agreed more with a zerg player with what I read in his post.

This just isn't the same game I fell in love with.
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Posts: 387
Nice exit. Much better than the last map maker who posted a retirement thread.

Thanks for the maps and gl~
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Posts: 155
Frankly I'm not concerned with how much of an expert he is in this sub-culture


Frankly I'm not concerned with the opinions of someone that out of hand dismisses people with demonstrably greater expertise than themselves in just about any area. I didn't mean to imply that you were not entitled to say whatever pops into your head, you can say whatever you want but the fact that your brain thinks something doesn't make it true, if you don't care what the truth is then you're entitled to do so, but from the outside looking in at your response you just look like someone offended by the notion that a game they enjoy might have high level strategic 'flaws' and for reasons I don't profess to understand have decided to refuse to consider any of the points raised in the OP on their own merits and instead launch an ad hominem at their author.

I don't understand why the suggestion that SC2 might be flawed in some ways, specifically at the competitive level, which to put it bluntly you never even partake, personally offends you, but clearly somehow it does. I just thought it might concern you to know that if you're going to speak out on such matters in the way while attached to an account in silver or gold league then you're just coming across as foolish and hubristic to anyone that knows what they are talking about. If you do not care that you come across in this way then very well, I've wasted some words attempting to inform you, so be it.
Edited by Spinoza on 9/26/2012 7:33 PM PDT
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Posts: 539
Hello everyone, I posted yesterday a blog on teamliquid.net about my retirement:
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=371545

Many people wanted to know the reasons of my lack of interest in this game, I post them here so the ones who are mainly concerned can read them. I reduced my subjective opinion as much as possible.

- A-move units with zero micro needed to do a lot of damage: colossus

- Units that forces a very specific counter otherwise you have high chances to lose: colossus->viking/corruptor

- Units push themselves, even enemy units, this causes to never be sure if your unit wall is ling proof

- Moving units have a smaller footprint than a static one moving ball armies are even smaller.

- The perfect pathing combined with unlimited selection, i think they must do unlimited selection with worse pathing to make more space between units OR perfect pathing with limited selection.

- Inability to move units between 2*2 buildings and bunkers. Supply depots wouldn't be needed at the bottom of main ramp.

- The spammable low tech anti-micro skills: forcefield and fungal , you can't counter them once you get caught. With brood war statis, you can save the units and about lockdown, it's hard to pull off and it's on only one unit.

- Smartcast, if there was no smartcast, spells could be much stronger because you would have to select spellcasters one by one. This could create comeback situations.

- Comebacks are only very rarely possible.

- The high number of workers needed per base, this causes to not need many bases spread out on the map. The high income rate is a big factor as well of not taking more than 3 bases.

- No highground advantage, the one in sc2 is only present in early game and is an illusion in the rest of the game. It causes terrain to not have much meaning.

- The big range of units compared to their radius, the consequence is too many units shoot at the same time and thus the dps rate of the army is huge.

- The dps rate causes players to not micro a lot

- There is no multiples battles occuring at the same time, and no, harass and drops are a different thing. The high dps rate causes that as well.

- Protoss early/mid game is balanced around the forcefield and forces them to take a very very close third base, you can't have too many paths leading to it otherwise a protoss can't forcefield everything.

- You can't place a lot of chokes in the middle of a map otherwise forcefields break everything (cloud kingdom is borderline on this subject)

- Every 4 players map with reflection symmetry must have close positions disabled because natural to natural distance is too short, it takes away a lot of diversity

- Units move too fast

- Tiny area control available, only tanks and swarm hosts can do it. Creep does it too but not very much.

- The only choke control unit/spell is the forcefield

- The terrain editor is extremely rigid, especially for ramps.

- The big size of expands, the resource gathering building having a 5*5 footprint

- Forcing 8 minerals, 2 gas expands

This list isn't complete, this is what i remember at this moment.

I feel you OP but this was pointed out since the BETA of WoL, if they aren't changing any of it in HotS BETA that means those "flaws" some may call improvements are here to stay and i think is cool i wouldn't want BW with nicer graphics, BW will always be there, plus Blizzard is likely not gonna change anything drastically specially since KESPA joined in with sc2.
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Posts: 26
09/26/2012 07:30 PMPosted by Spinoza
Frankly I'm not concerned with how much of an expert he is in this sub-culture


Frankly I'm not concerned with the opinions of someone that out of hand dismisses people with demonstrably greater expertise than themselves in just about any area. I didn't mean to imply that you were not entitled to say whatever pops into your head, you can say whatever you want but the fact that your brain thinks something doesn't make it true, if you don't care what the truth is then you're entitled to do so, but from the outside looking in at your response you just look like someone offended by the notion that a game they enjoy might have high level strategic 'flaws' and for reasons I don't profess to understand have decided to refuse to consider any of the points raised in the OP on their own merits and instead launch an ad hominem at their author.

I don't understand why the suggestion that SC2 might be flawed in some ways, specifically at the competitive level, which to put it bluntly you never even partake, personally offends you, but clearly somehow it does. I just thought it might concern you to know that if you're going to speak out on such matters in the way while attached to an account in silver or gold league then you're just coming across as foolish and hubristic to anyone that knows what they are talking about. If you do not care that you come across in this way then very well, I've wasted some words attempting to inform you, so be it.


Spinoza, you're my hero.

Anyways, I think the people who reject this criticism need to rethink that rejection. Criticism is the heart of refinement. If we don't criticize and analyse SC2, it will never get better. We have to admit that it probably isn't perfect and be open minded when someone highlights what they think is an issue or a solution. Being offensive will only ensure that the game does not improve. I'm not saying Super is right, but we definitely should take the arguments seriously instead of brushing them off.
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Posts: 1
great post and great points OP, you are absolutely right. SC2 has been truly disappointing. the amount of know-nothing SC2 players desperate to cut you down is quite staggering. they try to relabel as virtues the deep flaws that make the game boring, unskillful, and linear.

thank you for your maps and glgl~~
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Posts: 409
09/26/2012 07:30 PMPosted by Spinoza
If you do not care that you come across in this way then very well, I've wasted some words attempting to inform you, so be it.


Correction: You have wasted your words attempting to make fact from that which is limited to a single opinion. None of the points he made are detrimental to the overall good time. People like to watch strategists play/partake in playing each other and capitalize on individual/mechanical flaws.
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Posts: 594
Well I don't agree with very many of your points at all however, you made Cloud Kingdom and I freaking LOVE that map, so goodbye and good luck :D
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Posts: 163
@SUPEROUMAN,

Hello sir, don't know who you are however I read the entirey of your original post and agree with almost all points. I just logged in to personally say that I think iCCup TestBug map is my favorite Solo-Map and it's awesome. I just enjoyed the bases, the way it played, the open-ness of the middle, and how you eventually kind of had 2 players fighting for that 3rd base. Really cool stuff, sucks too see you go but SC2 is such garbage with the maps and a lot of the things you touched base on. It's hiliarious with your kind of knowledge that people are downplaying it because your not some pro-gamer level skill.... The problem with Starcraft 2, is that you have Dustin Browder and David Kim making 3 starcraft games total for SC2. I really think you could put Artosis, Incontrol (yes he has good ideas), & Day9 in a room and they would produce a far superior product.

You're probably better off for retiring and putting your talents into something more useful. Goodluck.
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Posts: 250
The topic creator is another weak willed player. I'm not going to say I am better then him or anything. I do thank him for his work on the maps. However, it's clear that he has hit a wall. His skill has hit a wall and he has to overcome it. Everyone runs into these walls and it takes a lot of practice, perseverance and hard work to overcome them. Some people cannot accept that it is their fault when they lose most of the time and they look for other factors to blame. This topic creator is one of those people. Ultimately though, until at least a fairly high level of the game(low Masters) nobody should be complaining. Since there's so many flaws in their play that they need to fix in order to improve. Many people cannot overcome the walls they run into.

Numerous players out there don't want to seriously try to get good at the game. It's made clear when people try to complain about other factors in games making them lose. When in the end it's all irrelevant. Players hit that skill wall and have a hard time breaking it down or getting over it. Becoming good at a game requires you to be so proficient that even if someone uses whatever imbalance is out there it still will not be enough. A truly good player will not be defeated due to imbalances. I'm not encouraging poor balance, but SC2 is at the least pretty well balanced. I used to be like a lot of people out there who raged and complained about the game being unfair. Yet, in the end it doesn't matter until you're near the very top of something.

The game will always be imbalanced. Even if only by a slight margin. In the end, the truly good players will be made clear. They will be the players who strive to become so great at the game that balance will not even matter anymore. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't want to put in the hard work and practice needed to become great at the game. They run into obstacles along the way and are discouraged. This map maker topic creator is one of those people. People who blame the game for their losses. When it's not the game's fault they lost most of the time, but rather their own. However, people want to look for anything, but themselves to blame upon losing. Some people cannot come to the realization that most losses are their own faults. Anyways though, good luck and maybe hopefully you change your opinion someday.
Edited by Cerberus on 9/26/2012 8:53 PM PDT
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Posts: 6
@ Cereberus

...Do you really think he quit because he lost too many games on ladder? LOL
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Posts: 3,077
09/26/2012 12:17 PMPosted by SUPEROUMAN
wanted to know the reasons of my lack of interest in this game

who cares?
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Posts: 10,744
I'm surprised at how people can make such high quality maps and say such silly things like "I don't understand how to know if my wall is plugged against Zerglings". Turn on build grid, make a 1 hex hole, hold position on Zealot. It's really not hard.
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Posts: 10
09/26/2012 09:05 PMPosted by Vranx
wanted to know the reasons of my lack of interest in this game

who cares?


The guy made both Testbug and Cloud Kingdom..... so lots of people actually.
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Posts: 1,034
I can't believe how disrespectful you all are. This is a man that has shaped the SC2 metagame with his maps for a majority of the eSport's life. A lot of you idiots are saying "good riddance with your balance whining" and seem to be under the impression that he is just a noname ladder player whining. The fact is, his impact on the scene is far greater than any of you plebs in this thread. He was announced his retirement (from MAPMAKING, you idiots) and was asked for his reasons. Here, he gives them, and all you clueless and ignorant nonames bash on him for balance whining. Please.

Respect his decisions to retire from mapmaking, and respect the fact that his map is the first non-Korean and non-Blizzard map to foray into a Korean Starleague.

I don't even know why he bothered posting on B.Net forums, seeing how it is oversaturated with trash.


quoted for truth

all of you people who can't even understand why he posted proved you have the intelligence of a baboon (the target market Blizzard designed this game for so no surprise there)

you are nothing but a bunch of sad, pathetic lowlives who just go on the net to insult people because, guess what, most of you wouldn't have the guts to do it in real life, where the guy you insult would have a chance to teach you the lesson your parents obviously didn't

he's not talking about balance, or discussing it, you idiots, just why he's quitting,
and like others said he contributed more to the game than you scumbags ever will, and understands it more than most of you ever will understand anything at all
the day you guys quit the game will be the best time to say
"good riddance"

superouman, thanks for the maps, good luck with whatever you'll do....
and while the game can be fun also as it is, you made some good points,
they wanted to make it easier than SC1 but they also turned it into a joke and
it's only a shadow of what it could have been in the hands of better designers
(rock/paper/scissors is more like it, that and deathballs=death of strategy)

fun maybe, but strategy, creativity, nope... if you think it's such a sophisticated game or even a sport (what a joke) you are sorely deluded, it's just a well thought out marketing gimmick
(Easy game which still creates the illusion of actual skill...)

Bye Superouman, gl
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Posts: 192
Lots of amazing points. Makes me sad Superouman won't be around to contribute and help improve the game anymore. Best of luck dude.
Edited by Quedar on 9/26/2012 9:38 PM PDT
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