StarCraft® II

[HotS] Suggestion for the Siege Tank

Posts: 1,881
Tanks just flat-out need a buff. They used to be the core Terran unit, but now they're nowhere near as powerful and have more counters in WoL than SC1. They just don't set the pace of the game as much.

Now in HotS, Zerg and Toss are each getting a new unit that hard counters tanks, with the Viper and Tempest. With all these counters in the game, tank play is going to be even weaker!

Current Terran play is all about the mobile, expendable bio balls. I thought the whole "fast, mobile army" was Zerg's schtick.... and it SHOULD be Zerg's schtick.

Tanks really need a buff, IMO, to make the units worth building even when Vipers and Tempest and Immortals are out on the field. Otherwise, it's only gonna encourage more bioballs. Terran needs to get back to it's roots as a defensive, map-control race and buffing tanks would help with that.
Edited by DeadWombat on 10/2/2012 9:54 AM PDT
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10/02/2012 03:35 AMPosted by fierywinds
I read everything, Fencar, and it's good material as ever. However, I still request some clarity. The Siege Tank is heavily used in 2 out of the 3 Terran matchups. It's absolutely crucial to TvT due to the generally low HP of Terran ground units as well as its impressive range and splash damage, and in TvZ, it does excellent damage to Banelings as well as keeping Infestors and limited numbers of Zerglings at bay.


And the tank also shreds hydras and roaches and does decent damage against ultras. Oh wait that sounds like the entire zerg ground army
Decreased mobility deals with this. Zerg could pop in, take out one or two units with speed hydras, then jump out with minimal losses.

Sieged Tanks are actually one of the lower DPS units of the Terran arsenal against Ultralisks. 100 damage every 3 seconds per six supply versus 180 damage every 3 seconds per six supply for stimmed Marauders--and Tanks cost more and come from a more expensive Factory.

Again, I think testing is required.

10/02/2012 09:29 AMPosted by Engineer
If I had to suggest some interesting and useful buffs to the ST, I would say a faster unsiege and maybe an incendiary effect upgrade for siege mode, where siege tank shots would continue to cause incendiary damage for a short time after the attack, which would make the tanks slightly better against Immortals. If the incendiary effect was added, the Siege Tank's initial damage could be lessened slightly in favor of an overall increase of damage due to the additional effect. It could also increase the siege tank's splash damage by dealing equal incendiary damage over the entire AoE that the splash covers.
This sounds weird, I'm not too sure about this because Marauder/Medivac/Viking could be made stronger than Tank/Hellion/Viking in straight-up engagements with this change(we all know how much DPS fungal does to a constantly healed Marine, this sounds a lot like that).
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Posts: 7,099
Tanks just flat-out need a buff. They used to be the core Terran unit, but now they're nowhere near as powerful and have more counters in WoL than SC1. They just don't set the pace of the game as much.

Now in HotS, Zerg and Toss are each getting a new unit that hard counters tanks, with the Viper and Tempest. With all these counters in the game, tank play is going to be even weaker!

Current Terran play is all about the mobile, expendable bio balls. I thought the whole "fast, mobile army" was Zerg's schtick.... and it SHOULD be Zerg's schtick.

Tanks really need a buff, IMO, to make the units worth building even when Vipers and Tempest and Immortals are out on the field. Otherwise, it's only gonna encourage more bioballs. Terran needs to get back to it's roots as a defensive, map-control race and buffing tanks would help with that.
Again, if we flat out buff Tanks, 1-1-1 will be OP in TvT and TvP. Mech will also be the go-to composition in TvT, with no Marine/Tank or Bio play.

Plus, maps with closer positions will be too Terran favoured, personally I'm in favour of more versatile map designs and not only Macro maps like Cloud Kingdom.

There are two things keeping tanks from being great in TvP.

The first is the post you quoted. Terran's early game is extremely strong, terrans are able to have very greedy openings like 3cc, and on equal bases terran will almost always have higher incomes. Were terran mech akin to BW, a greedy opening transitioning into them would be too strong in general. In BW the strength of mech was accounted for by the other races inevitable having much stronger economies.

The second is that there is nothing to actually get in the way. Comparing numbers, WoL tanks are actually very similar performance-wise to BW ones. The cost 25 gas and 1 supply more, and in exchange get a bunch of benefits (more range, smart fire, better when unsieged) while still having similar DPS while sieged (WoL tanks fire significantly faster). What made tanks truly strong in BW? You try running into them and your entire army dies to spider mines.

The first point can't be addressed unless MMM is nerfed (and possibly banshees), and that isn't going to happen. The second, with tweaks to widow mines (and BH to serve as a better "meat" wall) could definitely make tanks viable.
That's one possibility. Another is that, paying Minerals and Gas for a widow mine is too expensive to build enough to actually do a lot, and they get taken out using Colossus/Tempest plus Observer, or even carpet Psi-Storms.

I suppose Blizzard could ignore my suggestion and go for this, though I wonder how fun it would be to watch. I'll have to wait and see.
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If Widow Mines were created over a few seconds from un-Sieged Tanks instead of Factories, it would both be a reasonable buff for tanks, and be a better spot for Widow Mines to fit in. I'd like to see Blizz consider this more than anything for Terran right now.

So I know the Warhound is gone, but if Blizz ever did decide to look at it again, I have an idea how to balance it:
  • Make it a really weak unit initially that you can later upgrade into a Thor permanently.
    (as the only way to get Thors.. similarly how you need Corruptors for Broods)
  • You can get Haywire Missles as an optional upgrade (but nerf it), or skip them and just turn the Warhounds into Thors.
  • By making it take a bit longer to get to Thor, it would help vs current Thor/Battle-Hellion all-ins.
    This could be balanced by giving Strike Cannons a small buff.
  • Warhound just seems like an early Thor. :)
  • I know that would be a pretty big change, but along with Widow Mines spawning from unsieged Tanks instead of straight from Factories, I think it could seriously make Terran feel different yet still balanced.
    Edited by AeonSolace on 10/4/2012 11:45 PM PDT
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    Posts: 410
    09/28/2012 02:34 PMPosted by Doncroft
    Whatever it is, it has to be something that doesn't make Siege Tanks over-dominant in TvT. We want non-tank play to still be optional when done correctly.


    good bio play is very viable, but breaking siege line with bio needs great control.
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    Didn't we have this issue addressed before on the Beta forum? something like browder saying he didn't want the tank to be the core mech unit because it encourages players to sit in their bases all day?
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    Posts: 651
    That's why I suggest having unsieged Tanks spawn/remove Widow Mines.
    It requires Tanks to move out in order to throw down some mines.
    This creates a moment of vulnerability that other players can take advantage of, otherwise Tanks and Mines can be a tough combination to engage.
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    Posts: 7,099
    10/05/2012 12:28 AMPosted by Prodigal
    Didn't we have this issue addressed before on the Beta forum? something like browder saying he didn't want the tank to be the core mech unit because it encourages players to sit in their bases all day?
    Actually, if the Terran sits in his base, he dies at 15:00 to Broodlord/Infestor against Zerg.

    In TvT, well, that's TvT.

    In TvP, Tempests>Siege Lines.

    Basically, this is just asking for the other player to expand all over the map and then own the defending Terran with their T3.
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    Posts: 7,099
    That's why I suggest having unsieged Tanks spawn/remove Widow Mines.
    It requires Tanks to move out in order to throw down some mines.
    This creates a moment of vulnerability that other players can take advantage of, otherwise Tanks and Mines can be a tough combination to engage.
    That's just... weird. I have no opinion.
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    Posts: 7,099
    10/04/2012 11:52 PMPosted by Rain
    Whatever it is, it has to be something that doesn't make Siege Tanks over-dominant in TvT. We want non-tank play to still be optional when done correctly.


    good bio play is very viable, but breaking siege line with bio needs great control.
    By 'great control' you mean 'amazing control', or 'catch him unsieged', or 'get a 120 degree concave'(or higher). There's just no way you can beat Tank/Hellion/Viking otherwise. I've tried. :/
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    Posts: 2,429
    the roach is not the counter to siege tanks... everything else is
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    Posts: 3,461
    great suggestion fencar! siegetank is extremely underwhelming in Hots, i remember morrow was playing around with tanks in beta and he said mech is still not viable in tvp and tvz due to viper and stargate play by protoss which is very strong in hots
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    Posts: 2,248
    While I agree the siege tank should see some sort of buff that increases its use, the last thing I see the Terran lacking in is damage output.

    If any, the other terran units do so much damage so easily with nil effort compared to the siege tank, that everyone opts for them instead.

    The tanks in BW where amazing, if not slightly OP, but the rest of the army was fragile and coudnt derp all over the like MMM does, so having the tank he hugely powerful felt "ok".

    In reality, the tank only sees less use vs Protoss, and it can still be used well against them in multiple situations, so without nerfing other Terran options, I don't see how it can be buffed wihout making Terran obscene.
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    Posts: 1,442
    How about tanks do plus 15 to all shields on top of its normal damage, the number could be adjusted but it would defiantly not affect the other two match ups. This could also be used as an upgrade.

    Ur thoughts?
    Edited by Warmaster on 11/12/2012 8:09 AM PST
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    Posts: 2,248
    While I agree the siege tank should see some sort of buff that increases its use, the last thing I see the Terran lacking in is damage output.

    If any, the other terran units do so much damage so easily with nil effort compared to the siege tank, that everyone opts for them instead.

    The tanks in BW where amazing, if not slightly OP, but the rest of the army was fragile and coudnt derp all over the like MMM does, so having the tank he hugely powerful felt "ok".

    In reality, the tank only sees less use vs Protoss, and it can still be used well against them in multiple situations, so without nerfing other Terran options, I don't see how it can be buffed wihout making Terran obscene.


    Remember that Bio and mech are seperate entities. The power of Siege Tanks is in no way going to cause problems with mmm, and the current Hellions are often considered worse than Vultures because of their reduced skirmish capacity and the lack of spider mines. Widow Mines are going to be more limited (cost/supply) than Spider Mines were, and the Battle-Hellion and Thor are slow. Overall, increasing the Siege Tank's power will not cause problems with mech in the way that you are assuming.

    The main problem against Protoss right now does appear to be a damage issue.

    Immobility and large maps will balance the Siege Tank out. You can be certain of that, and I for one am still recommending that Siege Tanks gain no power increase against Zealots or Archons. Strictly anti-armor damage.
    .


    How is buffing the tank NOT going to affect bio overall? Because Terrans refuse to ever make the two of them and demand to only build one or the other?

    Protoss mixes nearly all of its tech paths to fight Terran, why is it Terran can't do the same?

    Back on topic, having an even higher damage tank allows you to take control of strategic points in the map, and then abuse the high mobility of your bio army to launch attacks from all over the place, while creeping with tanks towards the enemy base.

    Tanks do not need more damage, it only seems that way because bio does so much damage with little skill required compared to mech.
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    So basically, too many long range units are starting to overshadow the Siege Tank, as opposed to Brood War where its only range rivals were the expensive Guardian and Carrier? Because they could always be circumvented. Or broken with Arbiters, Storm, Zealots, etc.
    This is a very good point. Units such as colossus do not require tedious positioning and setup time. The swarm host is a good unit design in that regard.
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