Currently it is impossible to go any other air vs scourge.
have you tried going ground? air is over rated. thor + rines (yes, rines. do the math on cost per building, build time and dps. marines are badass for the 2-3 seconds they are attacking) / archons + stalker / mixed zerg ground all destroy air. (the exception is carrier: zerg cant handle them without air and terran need to ditch the rines)
I've played a lot of games (around 700-800) and archons really need to be toned down.
i have played around 1600 (at least since my last reformat) and i say they dont. (btw, i usually dont bring up my record but you did it first :P )
It's simple really, they have no weakness.
- They are bionic which means they take no bonus dmg from anything.
they are ALL shield and no armor, that means more expensive defensive upgrades, upgrades that most toss players dont get unless they are trying to mass archons, plus shields take bonus damage from ALL attacks (hull dmg is based on armor or light but shield dmg is not)
- They deal AoE dmg from both regular attacks and that "immolation" aura.
yes, they are anti light. w/o splash they would not be very good at that role unless you increase their attack speed drastically
- Their AoE dmg means they can completely destroy packs of air units (that bunch up really nicely) while also doing dmg to ground units underneath them (or vice versa).
oh no, air has a counter from the ground! the horror!! air play in NW is way too dominant; there should be ground to air counters to make going ground viable. w/o this toss only ground to air is stalkers and storms.
- They only cost 200 minerals and to make it even better, only take 4 food supply.
you are right, they are regular cost/food ratio (and in sc2 and most UMS they are not) but the longish spawn time makes up for that
- Their dmg scales enormously with upgrades.
havent noticed. you may be right on this but even so having 1 perk like that does not make a unit OP.
- Zerg have absolutely no answer vs them.
ultras: 2 ultras beat 3 archons by far (600/12 vs 600/12)). keep throwing in ultras and queens (1 ultra for 2 queens) and no amount of archons can stop you.
1-2 broods (ONLY 1-2, more than that is just plain dumb in most situations) in a standard zerg ground army help vs archons alot (not 100% effective but you dont get rolled over)
if toss does not have a terran ally, and if it is not during the super late game, 4-6 lurkers will destroy them regardless of army composition
Currently, their only direct "counter" is thors, since they do big dmg regardless of unit type.
ultra/tank/immortal/blink-stalkers + colossus/anything that cloaks (toss generally sucks vs invis), banes, air (except for mutas) + meat to keep the archons back. actually, thors are not even that great vs them if you dont have something else to keep the archons off them
it is not all about bonus damage, it is also about normal damage, rof, range, spawn time, and building cost.
also, compare equal cost to equal cost and how many spawn in given time, not 1 unit to 1 unit
There are many options that would bring them more "in line". This is what I suggest:
- Keep their dmg and health like it is but increase their cost to 300 minerals and make them take 6 food supply like other races' equivalent.
you really think an archon is equal to an ultra? thor? a bc? 2 tanks? just shy of a carrier? a collosus? they are good but not that class of good
- Keep their current food supply/minerals cost but reduce their shield to 400 and reduce the dmg scaling they receive on upgrade. I would also have them do no bonus dmg to bio.
- Keep them the way they are but flat out reduce the dmg they do to 15 (before upgrades).
either of these would require a reduction in spawn time and/or cost to maintain balance
They are meant to make a meat wall while high dmg units pew pew behind them. Right now, they're just flat out destroying anything that isnt thors, be it air or ground.
maybe that is their role in StarCraft or some other UMS with them in there, but that is obviously not how they function in NW and if you think of them as serving some function they are not serving then of course you will have trouble with them.
also, i mostly play zerg in NW. when i dont i am terran (heavy on the bio)
scourge: i hate to be this guy but i am going to quote my post from last thread. any suggestions on other options?
it used to always be "you cant go air vs a competent zerg" but now it is "you cant go air vs any zerg." yes, archons help, ghosts, help, rines help, having unsynced medivacs and phenos to bait them help but it is still too much. a few ideas (if ALL of these are used they will be pointless but 1 or more may make a difference):
double their supply cost
reduce speed to 2.5 or 2.75
spawn every 24 seconds but only 1
only +.5 per armor/dmg upgrade
deal dmg to friendly units as well
higher (highest?) attack priority
when they die they each do 2 explosions at 1/2 current dmg (makes armor more effective)
do crap dmg vs armor (or crap dmg vs light, either way)
yes there is the obvious "do less damage" and "take longer to spawn" but i generally like the spawn rate and the damage they have now so in my perfect nexus wars the balance issue would be dealt with in other ways.
EDIT 2: <the air stuff at the start of the post>