StarCraft® II

[Nexus Wars] - Changelog/Suggestions (3)

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Original 2nd thread: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/2211923600

Original Thread: <a href="http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/188779114?page=1">http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/188779114?page=1</a>
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Hi everyone, this is Isospeedrix and I will be creating a community for Nexus Wars and handling suggestions and changelogs. Nexus Wars was created by Lilman, and was one of the most popular maps in SC2 beta. I work with Lilman personally and he has decided to minimize dealing with forums and public affairs in favor of focusing on map design. Lets hope Nexus Wars will continue to thrive in SC2 retail!

I will post all relevant changes in new versions, and update this thread constantly when a new version is out. All suggestions, bugs, balance concerns should be voiced in this thread. I will relay them directly to Lilman and we will work together on improving the map. Thanks everyone!

-Isospeedrix/Isonubdrix/SCDiso

***** NEWS AND UPDATES *****
3/22/13 - Just uploaded a new version of nexus wars with hots units. The CE ultralisk skin should work now. I also uploaded another version of the map with wings of liberty units only called "Nexus Wars WoL" for thsoe who do not have heart of the swarm. The changelog is posted blow. Let me know if there's any bugs or anything. Thanks again for all the feedback. -Lilman
We are in channel "Nexus Wars".

4/13/11 - Name change! Argh I hate my new name, my original name was too long to fit, so now it's just gunna be SCDiso. Looks like Disco.

2/9/11 - Please join chat channel "Nexus Wars" for discussion and arranging games. I'll be in the channel from time to time as well.

*****CHANGELOG v 2.00***** 3/22/13

New Heart of the Swarm units added:
- Terran:
- Hellbat
- Warhound
- Zerg:
- Swarm Host: spawns locust swarms
- Viper: casts blinding cloud and abduct
- Protoss:
- Mothership Core: casts time warp
- Tempest

Balance:
- Infestors now cast fungal growth instead of infested terrans
- Point defense drone cost reduced to 100 minerals. Energy reduced from 200 to 150
- Zealot charge upgrade reduced to 75 minerals

Added new builders:
- Leviathan 1000 wins
- Kraith 1500 wins
- Brakk 1650 rating
- Mohandar 1900 rating

New Hero:
- Archangel
Edited by SCDiso on 1/13/2014 11:42 AM PST
*****CHANGELOG v 1.84***** 4/24/12
Bug Fixes:
-Fixed kerrigan burrowing giving mineral and costing mineral to unburrow
-Fixed repair button showing only repairs mechanical and structures
-Nexus is now set to control group 0

Balance:
-Increased travel speed of point defense drone
-Scan now has a 1 second cooldown

*****CHANGELOG v 1.80***** 4/23/12
-Changed the default camera back
-Fixed upgrade numbers being higher than they should when selecting 2 Upgrade and heroes buildings
-Increased the duration of the destructable rocks to 3minutes

*****CHANGELOG v 1.78***** 4/22/12
Features:
-Fixed attack scan range for some of the new builders
-Fixed hybrid patrol and repair being switched
-Text announcement when a hero dies
-Heroes cost 2 times more each time. ex 1000, 2000, 4000, 8000
-Added destructable rocks in the center that lasts 2min 30s
-Added a button for changelog in the options menu (f10)
-Added new spell point defense drone to nexus. 100mineral 10sec cd
-Added changelog button in the options menu(f10). still can type -changelog if you want to view it though

Balance:
-Odin nuke range reduced from 80 to 45
-Scv can now repair any units. not just mechanical or structures
-Upgrade research time now increases after each upgrade. 5, 10,15,25,35,45,55,65,75seconds

Bug Fixes:
-Fixed bounty for tank
-Fixed tooltip for scv blink showing 20seconds cooldown

*****CHANGELOG v 1.74***** 4/4/12
Features:
-Nuke now shows total damage done
-Nydus spawn sound reduced
-Make a barrier in the middle that lasts 3min so players can't build down the middle
-Added cooldown timer to scv for heroes and upgrades building
-Income timer set to 20 ingame seconds. Almost same as 15 real time seconds

-Added new builders based on wins.
scv 0 wins (default)
drone 10 wins
probe 25 wins
medic 50 wins
tauren marine 100 wins
aberration 200 wins
mothership 300 wins
hybrid 500 wins

Balance:
-Dropship heal have an upgrade allowing them to heal 2 units and increases starting energy by 25
-Infestor build time reduced to 45s
-Ultralisk build time reduced to 50s
-Broodlord build time reduced to 50s
-Archon shield armor +1
-Archon damage increased to 25
-Reduced DT build time to 45s
-Combat shield upgrade reduced to 75 minerals
-Marauder stim upgrade reduced to 100 minerals
-Glial reconstitution upgrade reduced to 75 minerals
-Zeratul model slightly bigger*****CHANGELOG v 1.73***** 3/8/12
-Added a changelog in game
--The changelog will only be automatically open at the start of the game when it is your first time playing a new version. To view the changelog at anytime, type -changelog.

-Viking and storm assassin bounty fixed
-Zeratul void prison works on heroes
-Void prison time reduced from 12 to 8 seconds
-Zeratul damage now 70+30 heroes
-Fixed hero icon for kerrigan

*****CHANGELOG v 1.72***** 3/4/12
-Ling speed upgrade reduced from 125 to 100 minerals
-Infernal preigniter upgrade reduced from 150 to 100 minerals
-Hydralisk range upgrade reduced from 150 to 100 minerals
-Combat shield upgrade reduced from 150 to 100 minerals
-Concussive shell upgrade now also in marauder building
-Kerrigan energy regeneration rate reduced from 1.75 to 1.25
-Reaper attack speed decreased back to 1.1
-Detection removed from buildings. Pylon, cannon, nexus, still have detection
-Added low range detection on scv
-Fixed banshee tooltip
-Frenzy temporarily removed (possibly permanent, we will see)

*****CHANGELOG v 1.70 ***** 2/12/12
-Fixed using leaver scv to build buildings

Balance:
-Scout air damage reduced from 10+8 to 10+5armored air
-Reaper attack speed increased from 1.1 to 1.25
-Reaper damage reduced from 5+5 to 4+5
-Zealot cost reduced to 75
-Immortal build time reduced from 50 to 45 seconds
-Zeratul shield increased from 500 to 1000

*****CHANGELOG v 1.69 ***** 1/30/12
Balance:
-Added melee range detection to all buildings
-Spells during frenzy now only deal 1.5x damage instead of 3x. (storm/snipe/etc.)
-Upgrading pylons now increases its life

-Siege tank build time reduced to 40 from 45
-Scout now deals 10+8 armored to air and 10 to ground
-Scout air range increase from 5 to 7
-Zeratul now only do 50dmg to structures. and less splash on structures.
-Sentry attack range increased from 4 to 5
-Archon immolation no longer damages structures

*****CHANGELOG v 1.68***** 11/16/11
Balance:
-Roach:
--build time increased from 27 to 30sec
--life decreased to 120 from 140
-Firebat hp increased to 145
--Firebat armor upgrade cost lowered from 150 to 100
-Tank range increased from 6 to 7
-Viking range increase from 7 to 8
-Lurker damage increased to 15+5light
-Reaper damage increased to 5+5light

*****CHANGELOG v 1.65***** 11/2/11
Balance:
-Immortal build time 40 to 50 secs.

*****CHANGELOG v 1.64***** 11/1/11
-All new loading screen art! Thanks to Aeroscythe, aeroscythe.deviantart.com, aeroscythe.blogspot.com.

Balance:
-Map length reduced
-Baneling: HP increased by 5
-Ultralisk: Now has charge, and HP reduced from 1100 to 800*****CHANGELOG v 1.63***** 6/2/11
Bug Fixes:
-Fixed a boxing bug where units would group.
-Fixed a bug for team 2 where when a player leaves his units didn't change ownership to the rest of the team.

Balance:
Queen - Now leaves a trail of creep
Ghost - Snipe does 40 damage

*****CHANGELOG v 1.59 ***** 4/13/11
Features:
-When there are 0 players on a team, the opposing team wins. No longer need to wait for nexus to die.

Balance:
-Archon
--Shield armor reduced from 1 to 0.
--Immolation damage from 5 dps to 3 damage/1.5 sec. Radius still 3.5.

*****CHANGELOG v 4.1.11***** 4/1/11
Bug Fixes/Features:
-When Nexus Wars starts, 1 random player will be dropped from the game. All other players on that team will have twice the starting income.
-Due to the back and forth nature that nukes cause, we decided to reduce the redundancy of nukes. Whoever uses the first nuke automatically loses the game.
-If you control a photon cannon, typing "OMG noobs com fix canon" will automatically teleport all allied scvs to your cannon and start autorepairing it.
-Nexus Wars can now only run on ultra graphics settings.
-The nexus is now spelled correctly.

Balance:
-Carriers now hold 20 interceptors and gain +5 damage from attack upgrades
-Thor range increased to 30
-Whenever you build a pylon, you can no longer build any other structures other than pylons for the rest of the game.*****CHANGELOG v 1.58***** 3/30/11
-Pylon prices and income rebalanced:
Price | Income
175 16
250 32
450 64
900 128
1800 256
-Archon Shields reduced from 600 to 500.

*****CHANGELOG v 1.57***** 3/24/11
-Fixed a bug for team 2 where if someone on team 2 left and players built using the leaver scv they get to control the uncommandable unit.
-Fixed lobby for 1v1,2v2,3v3

*****CHANGELOG v 1.56***** 3/22/11
Bug Fixes/Features:

-Fixed units stopping in the lane.
-Fixed units being able to rally to a location first.
-Fixed Archon being able to kill enemy SCV.
-Hellions no longer run back constantly. They will only run back once every 5 seconds.
-Fixed pylon upgrade cost.
-Frenzy is now at 40 minutes up from 35.
-Heroes no longer gain frenzy.

*****CHANGELOG v 1.55***** 3/22/11
The mega patch to compliment the blizzard patch! Here we go!

Bug Fixes/Features:

-If Teams are uneven:
--Players now receive additional minerals. There is no extra income gain. For example: 3v4 each player on the 3 team gets 25 more mineral each. 2v4 each player gets 50 each. 1v4 player gets 100 more minerals.
--Extra SCVS are now owned by computer player and everyone on the team can use them.

-SCVs cannot attack own or ally buildings anymore.
-AIs work again if you set a player as computer in lobby.
-Blocking is made more difficult.

Balance:

-Attack upgrades are now limited to 9, same as the armor upgrades.
-Pylon - You can only can build 1 now but the pylon is upgradable 5 costing more each time to upgrade. Makes for less pylon spam and more focus on building units.
-Chrono boost costs 30 minerals, reduced from 50.
-Constant +10% damage buff removed.
-Nuke no longer uses gas. You have 1 charge and instead the icon will become grey after you use the nuke.

-Photon Cannon
--No longer uses terrazine. You have 2 charges and whenever it dies you'll gain another charge.
--Cannon no longer costs 5 supply.

-Kerrigan - energy regen reduced from 2.5 to 2.
-Odin
--Nuke casting range increased to 65.
--Nuke damage increase from 100 I think to 200.
--Barrage damage increase too from 8 to 10 damage per hit. Channeling.
-Zeratul- life decreased to 2000.

-Infestor-
--SCV Nuke and Odin Nuke can now kill infested terrans.
--Each upgrade now only gives them + .5 damage instead of +1.
--Infested terrans have 150 HP and can now be attacked but it has a low attack priority (will not be attacked unless nothing is around).

Stalker-
--New upgrade: Blink- 100 minerals to upgrade. 20 second cooldown.
--Stalkers blink back whenever they get hit if cooldown is up.

-Hellion- will run back after each attack as if it micro's itself.
-Archon-
--Now require Storm Assassins (High Templars) instead of Aeroscythes (DT)
--Now have immolation - 5 damage/second melee range aura.
-Firebat
--Armor increased by 1.
--AOE area increased from .6 radius to 1.
Ultralisk- damage increased to 15.*****CHANGELOG v 1.53***** 2/6/11
Bug Fixes/Features:
-Voting has now been removed to reduce the amount of desync and drop occurrences. Default modes are now: Fog of war = on, Income = 15 sec, Supply = 90.

*****CHANGELOG v 1.52***** 2/5/11
Bug Fixes:
-Fixed leaver SCVs able to cross the barrier

*****CHANGELOG v 1.51***** 2/4/11
Bug Fixes/Features:
-The long awaited 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, modes has arrived! The creator can now pick 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, or 4v4 mode from the game lobby.

-HOW TO GET A DIFFERENT MODE OF NEXUS WARS:
1) By creating a game:
--Click "Create game"
--At the game lobby, there is a dropdown menu called "Mode", choose your desired mode (1v1 2v2 or 3v3)
--Click "Open to Public" if you want a public game
2) By joining:
--Click "Join game"
--Search the list for Nexus Wars with the mode you desire (1v1 2v2 or 3v3)
--Note that 4v4/Tug-Of-War catagory will be the most popular and other modes will be far down the popularity list.
**Due to the popularity system, other modes will not be as popular, but they exist for those who want to have an inhouse game with friends since it was a frequent request on the forums. Enjoy!

-Siege tank failing to sync fixed

Balance:
-Ultralisk
--Rebalanced HP to 1000, and damage to 10 (+0 to armored)
--Collision removed
-Archon - Collision removed
-Heroes' health and mana regen approximately doubled
-Upgrade margin costs increased from 50 to 75
-Pylon cost decreased from 200 to 175*****CHANGELOG v 1.49 ***** 1/16/11
Bug Fixes/Features:
-For each player that leaves during countdown in lobby, 1 SCV and 1 Vespene gas will be given to first player of whichever team the leaver is on.
-Frenzy now activates at 35 minutes down from 40.
-Medivac heal fixed
-Odin nuke failing to activate fixed
-Some building missing buttons were fixed

Balance:
-Kerrigan
--HP Regen increased to 3
--Mana regen increased 1.5
-Odin
--HP Regen increased to 1.5
--Mana regen increased to 1.5
Zeratul
--Shield Regen increased to 5
--HP Regen increased to 2
-Attack upgrades are now infinite
-Armor upgrades max out at 9
--Each upgrade after level 3 costs 50 minerals more than the previous

Note: Please post any balance changes due to the upgrade change. In theory, infinite upgrades will not have any incredibly drastic impact; the cost of upgrade goes up and the % increase in damage goes down. (For example, zealot damage going from level 0 to 1 increases from 8-10, a 25% increase for only 100 minerals, while damage going from 100 to 102 is only a 2% increase while costing thousands of minerals.)

*****CHANGELOG v 1.47 ***** 1/13/11
Bug Fixes/Features:
-Fixed lack of salvage option for Marauder, Medivac, Ghost buildings
-Fixed hydralisk range upgrade
-Fixed unable to cancel banshee's with ESC
-Reverted terrain back to normal

Balance:
-Pylon: Cost decreased to 175

Note: Due to the overall damage buff, cannons became relatively weaker so we felt that reducing pylon cost can encourage more economic play without degenerating into cannon turtle play.

*****CHANGELOG v 1.46 ***** 12/12/10
Balance:
-All units' attack damage increased by 15%
-Heroes' hitpoints increased by 1000
-Added snow as homage to a Christmas theme

-Note: These changes are quite drastic; none of the changes however, make any particular unit imbalanced. We implemented this as an attempt to see how the players adjust their strategies with the change in attack power. We will monitor the status of balance. Please post what new strategies open up or close; and which units end up becoming stronger than before. We also suspect this may play a big role in determining the tug-of-war factor of the "deathballs" from each side. Hero hitpoints were increased because heroes that were sent out to the lane simply get crushed too fast, and its not fun losing a hero on a 10 minute cooldown.

*****CHANGELOG v 1.44***** 11/9/10
Features:
-Added "Tug of War" game variant. You should now be able to see Nexus Wars if you filter the Tug of War option.

*****CHANGELOG v 1.43***** 11/8/10
Bug Fixes:
-Fixed bug with Isonubdrix abusing blink allowing teleport

Balance:
-Medivac movespeed reduced to 2.5

*****CHANGELOG v 1.42***** 10/18/10
Balance:
-Void Ray damage changed to level 1: 6, level 2: 6+4 armored, level 3: 8+8 armored
-Battlecruiser: cost changed to 350 minerals
-Roach: Range increased to 4 *****CHANGELOG v 1.40***** 9/14/10
Bug Fixes:
-Fixed supply cap when a player leaves a game on 60-supply mode
-Moved salvage button on cannon

Balance:
-Void Ray cost increased to 250 from 200

*****CHANGELOG v 1.37***** 9/7/10
Features:
-New vote for 60 or 90 food
---If 60 max food is chosen, only 1 cannon per player is allowed

Balance:
-Photon cannon - Damage decreased to 20

*****CHANGELOG v 1.26***** 8/31/10
Bug Fixes:
-Fixed infestor only attacking air
-Fixed units sometimes getting stuck in the middle of the lane

Balance:
-Infestor - Increased infested terran cast range
-Queen - Air attack range reduced to 7 (same as in melee games)

*****CHANGELOG v 1.24*****
Bug Fixes/Features:
-Changed sweeper scan and chrono boost hotkey to q and w respectively
-Fixed chrono boost not working on some buildings
-Zeratul now cannot use void prison on the nexus
-Nexus now can detect cloaked units very close to it (melee range)

*****CHANGELOG v 1.22*****
Bug Fixes:
-Fixed supply bug
Edited by SCDiso on 10/15/2012 11:03 PM PDT
Reserved
wow, no comments yet? can i make a suggestion that would be awesome... a hero with a vortex ability, but you'd have to change some of the parameters i guess, like duration of vortex, or how many units can go in or something. if not people could just vortex their units, and send 2 spawn waves at once.
Uh, reduction in collision size for infestors very slightly? 10-15% should do it, I think.

They tend to get their fat asses stuck if there's only one space between the buildings. I guess that's fine, there's enough space.

Incinerator Gauntlet upgrade for Firebat instead of Juggernaut Plating, perhaps?

Reduction of zergling speed upgrade cost to 75 or 50 minerals from 100?

If Spectres are going to look like Nova/Kerrigan, could you make them have the Nova sound set?

These are my legitimate suggestions.

Here on out, it's just goofy rambling and junk.

On the subject of heroes... I think things are fine as they are. That doesn't mean that I'm against adding more, though.

Vortex could be an interesting mechanic but I personally think it's more suited to being on the Nexus as a minerals-for-spell type of thing like Point Defense Drone, Scanner Sweep, and Chronoboost.

Point Defense Drone could use some tweaking, too. I don't know exactly how. It is only viable in extremely niche situations, Chronoboost and Scanner Sweep seem to have much more broad utility to them. Ideas include adjusting the energy, cost, and cooldown. Maybe reduce the energy and cost, and increase the cooldown? I would just like to see it used more in games...
I know this has been brought up a few times. The scourge needs something to nerf them a little.

Currently it is impossible to go any other air vs scourge. Your only choice is to make scourge yourself and that takes the fun out of it and tends to drag out games since your air becomes a stalemate.
I know this has been brought up a few times. The scourge needs something to nerf them a little.

Currently it is impossible to go any other air vs scourge. Your only choice is to make scourge yourself and that takes the fun out of it and tends to drag out games since your air becomes a stalemate.


Oh my god yes.
I've played a lot of games (around 700-800) and archons really need to be toned down.

It's simple really, they have no weakness.

- They are bionic which means they take no bonus dmg from anything.
- They deal AoE dmg from both regular attacks and that "immolation" aura.
- Their AoE dmg means they can completely destroy packs of air units (that bunch up really nicely) while also doing dmg to ground units underneath them (or vice versa).
- They only cost 200 minerals and to make it even better, only take 4 food supply.
- Their dmg scales enormously with upgrades.
- Zerg have absolutely no answer vs them.

Currently, their only direct "counter" is thors, since they do big dmg regardless of unit type.

There are many options that would bring them more "in line". This is what I suggest:

- Keep their dmg and health like it is but increase their cost to 300 minerals and make them take 6 food supply like other races' equivalent.

- Keep their current food supply/minerals cost but reduce their shield to 400 and reduce the dmg scaling they receive on upgrade. I would also have them do no bonus dmg to bio.

- Keep them the way they are but flat out reduce the dmg they do to 15 (before upgrades).

They are meant to make a meat wall while high dmg units pew pew behind them. Right now, they're just flat out destroying anything that isnt thors, be it air or ground.
Currently it is impossible to go any other air vs scourge.


have you tried going ground? air is over rated. thor + rines (yes, rines. do the math on cost per building, build time and dps. marines are badass for the 2-3 seconds they are attacking) / archons + stalker / mixed zerg ground all destroy air. (the exception is carrier: zerg cant handle them without air and terran need to ditch the rines)

I've played a lot of games (around 700-800) and archons really need to be toned down.


i have played around 1600 (at least since my last reformat) and i say they dont. (btw, i usually dont bring up my record but you did it first :P )

It's simple really, they have no weakness.

- They are bionic which means they take no bonus dmg from anything.


they are ALL shield and no armor, that means more expensive defensive upgrades, upgrades that most toss players dont get unless they are trying to mass archons, plus shields take bonus damage from ALL attacks (hull dmg is based on armor or light but shield dmg is not)

- They deal AoE dmg from both regular attacks and that "immolation" aura.


yes, they are anti light. w/o splash they would not be very good at that role unless you increase their attack speed drastically

- Their AoE dmg means they can completely destroy packs of air units (that bunch up really nicely) while also doing dmg to ground units underneath them (or vice versa).


oh no, air has a counter from the ground! the horror!! air play in NW is way too dominant; there should be ground to air counters to make going ground viable. w/o this toss only ground to air is stalkers and storms.

- They only cost 200 minerals and to make it even better, only take 4 food supply.


you are right, they are regular cost/food ratio (and in sc2 and most UMS they are not) but the longish spawn time makes up for that

- Their dmg scales enormously with upgrades.


havent noticed. you may be right on this but even so having 1 perk like that does not make a unit OP.

- Zerg have absolutely no answer vs them.


ultras: 2 ultras beat 3 archons by far (600/12 vs 600/12)). keep throwing in ultras and queens (1 ultra for 2 queens) and no amount of archons can stop you.

1-2 broods (ONLY 1-2, more than that is just plain dumb in most situations) in a standard zerg ground army help vs archons alot (not 100% effective but you dont get rolled over)

if toss does not have a terran ally, and if it is not during the super late game, 4-6 lurkers will destroy them regardless of army composition

Currently, their only direct "counter" is thors, since they do big dmg regardless of unit type.


ultra/tank/immortal/blink-stalkers + colossus/anything that cloaks (toss generally sucks vs invis), banes, air (except for mutas) + meat to keep the archons back. actually, thors are not even that great vs them if you dont have something else to keep the archons off them

it is not all about bonus damage, it is also about normal damage, rof, range, spawn time, and building cost.

also, compare equal cost to equal cost and how many spawn in given time, not 1 unit to 1 unit

There are many options that would bring them more "in line". This is what I suggest:

- Keep their dmg and health like it is but increase their cost to 300 minerals and make them take 6 food supply like other races' equivalent.


you really think an archon is equal to an ultra? thor? a bc? 2 tanks? just shy of a carrier? a collosus? they are good but not that class of good

- Keep their current food supply/minerals cost but reduce their shield to 400 and reduce the dmg scaling they receive on upgrade. I would also have them do no bonus dmg to bio.

- Keep them the way they are but flat out reduce the dmg they do to 15 (before upgrades).


either of these would require a reduction in spawn time and/or cost to maintain balance

They are meant to make a meat wall while high dmg units pew pew behind them. Right now, they're just flat out destroying anything that isnt thors, be it air or ground.


maybe that is their role in StarCraft or some other UMS with them in there, but that is obviously not how they function in NW and if you think of them as serving some function they are not serving then of course you will have trouble with them.

also, i mostly play zerg in NW. when i dont i am terran (heavy on the bio)

EDIT:

scourge: i hate to be this guy but i am going to quote my post from last thread. any suggestions on other options?

it used to always be "you cant go air vs a competent zerg" but now it is "you cant go air vs any zerg." yes, archons help, ghosts, help, rines help, having unsynced medivacs and phenos to bait them help but it is still too much. a few ideas (if ALL of these are used they will be pointless but 1 or more may make a difference):

double their supply cost
reduce speed to 2.5 or 2.75
spawn every 24 seconds but only 1
only +.5 per armor/dmg upgrade
deal dmg to friendly units as well
15 hp
higher (highest?) attack priority
when they die they each do 2 explosions at 1/2 current dmg (makes armor more effective)
do crap dmg vs armor (or crap dmg vs light, either way)

yes there is the obvious "do less damage" and "take longer to spawn" but i generally like the spawn rate and the damage they have now so in my perfect nexus wars the balance issue would be dealt with in other ways.


EDIT 2: <the air stuff at the start of the post>
Edited by MrQuackums on 10/26/2012 12:01 AM PDT
they are ALL shield and no armor, that means more expensive defensive upgrades, upgrades that most toss players dont get unless they are trying to mass archons, plus shields take bonus damage from ALL attacks (hull dmg is based on armor or light but shield dmg is not)


This is wrong, being a shield unit is what makes their strenght. Archons don't take 50 dmg per immortal shot or 20 something from marauder etc. They take the base dmg from every unit type hence the "they receive no bonus dmg".

As for the upgrade, I don't get at all why you wouldn't get shield as toss since it transfers to any unit type you'll be making in the game.

ultras: 2 ultras beat 3 archons by far (600/12 vs 600/12)). keep throwing in ultras and queens (1 ultra for 2 queens) and no amount of archons can stop you. 1-2 broods (ONLY 1-2, more than that is just plain dumb in most situations) in a standard zerg ground army help vs archons alot (not 100% effective but you dont get rolled over)if toss does not have a terran ally, and if it is not during the super late game, 4-6 lurkers will destroy them regardless of army composition


Ok, maybe 2 ultras beat 3 archons on paper (not sure), but the thing is since archons are so cheap to make, you will get overwhelmed by them before you can muster enough ultras to hold them in places. Also, ultras are very quick on creep as opposed to queens and most the the time they'll be almost all dead by the time the queens arrive to heal them.

Archons do really sick dmg versus bio, I think it's 73 when maxxed ? in one shot? As for the cloaking, that is a non issue with the AE dmg. Sure, they won't see those lurkers or ghosts, but they'll be shooting at anything that has the same range or that is sitting on top of them and they will just die to the AE dmg. I have tried it since I usually have 4-6 lurkers in my build to carry me to late game but as soon as the enemy has 3-4 archons, they become useless.

ultra/tank/immortal/blink-stalkers + colossus/anything that cloaks (toss generally sucks vs invis), banes, air (except for mutas) + meat to keep the archons back. actually, thors are not even that great vs them if you dont have something else to keep the archons off themit is not all about bonus damage, it is also about normal damage, rof, range, spawn time, and building cost.also, compare equal cost to equal cost and how many spawn in given time, not 1 unit to 1 unit


I can't say for that ultra/queens strat and I do believe tanks couldpwn em since they do a lot of dmg (like thors) but I can tell you that a maxxed supply army, say 3 colossus + rest archons will totally destroy the blink stalkers/immortal/cloaked unit variant.

The problem is that with 4 food supply, you get a 510 hp unit with high AoE dmg, no other race can do that. Also, you must consider that AoE dmg scales with itself, the more you have, the faster and quicker everything dies.

As for the scourges thing, I never had any problems with someone massing scourges, like you said, that can be easily countered by just ignoring air and going full ground. They do become quite potent with some upgrades though. Their attack upgrade ratio is a bit too high imo. I like the "only spawn 1" idea. It would still make them effective vs big clusters of low hp air units like vikings/phoenix/banshees/mutas and dangerous to void/corrupters/scouts while also not completely owning bcs and carriers as much.
My input on the Archon deal is:

I think that they'd be fine without immolation, and immolation makes them a bunch harder to counter. Their damage and splash is fine without immolation with the shields at 500.

Honestly, though, just switch race if they start massing archons. It's not like you're pigeonholed in to picking one race and nothing else.

Picking one race and not switching/building any other races' units is novice :|

edit:

Also, Tanks are absolutely a viable counter to Archons.
Edited by Mirri on 10/26/2012 10:50 AM PDT
On the topic of archons the only nerf I'd support is reducing the bonus damage vs bio. The reason being is that I have not found the archons themselves to be the main problem. (except vs zerg)
The issue is that once you have an archon you have easy access to units like immortals and high Templar which between the two hard counter nearly every unit that can beat archons.
Edited by Dapperdanman on 10/26/2012 10:54 AM PDT
Yes I have tried ground vs scourge.

I am not saying it is impossible to beat scourge its just seems to be taking a lot of the fun out my games and dragging them on a long time.
Yes I have tried ground vs scourge.

I am not saying it is impossible to beat scourge its just seems to be taking a lot of the fun out my games and dragging them on a long time.


...I think the issue here, at least, in my viewpoint, is this:

Banelings are almostthe end-all ground-to-ground unit when massed enough. They will destroy just about anything. However, they can be countered with ground.

Scourges are the end-all air-to-air unit when massed even in small numbers. They will destroy anything and are uncounterable with air units.

They both play similar roles, but the Scourge is just too powerful right now. I think that making at least ONE unit counter them would be the solution.

To fix this, personally, I would try increasing Phoenix damage vs. light units, or introduce the Anion Pulse-Crystals upgrade in to Nexus Wars and see how that works.
10/26/2012 01:22 AMPosted by Alfred
being a shield unit is what makes their strenght. Archons don't take 50 dmg per immortal shot or 20 something from marauder etc. They take the base dmg from every unit type hence the "they receive no bonus dmg".


you may be right about this, but all i know is that in general archons are not as scary as they seem

10/26/2012 01:22 AMPosted by Alfred
As for the upgrade, I don't get at all why you wouldn't get shield as toss since it transfers to any unit type you'll be making in the game.


because shield ups are the most expensive in the game and toss units (except for archons) are mostly hull with just a little shield. its not that you NEVER see them, its that it is usually 2-3 hull ups for every shield up.

10/26/2012 01:22 AMPosted by Alfred
Ok, maybe 2 ultras beat 3 archons on paper (not sure), but the thing is since archons are so cheap to make, you will get overwhelmed by them before you can muster enough ultras to hold them in places. Also, ultras are very quick on creep as opposed to queens and most the the time they'll be almost all dead by the time the queens arrive to heal them.


how it works is (and trust me on this, this is how i handle archons and it works) sync the ultras, DO NOT sync the queens; that way there is usually a small bunch of queens there when the ultras show up. also, the ultras that survive slow down the next archon wave enough to increase the number of both queens and ultras in the mix. the reason this works is that regular zerg units you have at this point (few hydras/infesotrs/whatever) and the queens have great dps and can hit the archons while the ultras soak. be sure to NOT get melee upgrade get armor and range dmg, ultras just dont scale well on dmg. also, queens are not bio (thats why they dont heal eachother) so no bonus dmg from archons

Archons do really sick dmg versus bio,... I have tried it since I usually have 4-6 lurkers in my build to carry me to late game but as soon as the enemy has 3-4 archons, they become useless.


try getting a few ultras in there (ultras kill everything protoss except immo (yes, even air)) and/or banes for splash to kill sentrys.

10/26/2012 01:22 AMPosted by Alfred
I can tell you that a maxxed supply army, say 3 colossus + rest archons will totally destroy the blink stalkers/immortal/cloaked unit variant.


you may be right on this also: i dont play toss so i dont know toss vs toss counters and just assumed that based on TheoryWars i also dont usually mass invis vs archons but just assumed that because it works vs most other toss builds would work vs this too (i need to try it out next time i see too many archons)

The problem is that with 4 food supply, you get a 510 hp unit with high AoE dmg, no other race can do that. Also, you must consider that AoE dmg scales with itself, the more you have, the faster and quicker everything dies.


i see 200/4 for 510hp+splash comparable to 300/6 for 800hp+splash+upgrade for extra armor and to 300/6 for huge hp, huge range. archons are good but not as good as thors/ultras/collosus and should not cost as much.

btw, how much do they get for dmg upgrade? that MIGHT be problematic. i also do really like the idea of removing immolation dmg, they should be anti-light but that is different from absolutely destroying light (use colossus for that)
Edited by MrQuackums on 10/26/2012 6:59 PM PDT
10/26/2012 06:57 PMPosted by MrQuackums
i see 200/4 for 510hp+splash comparable to 300/6 for 800hp+splash+upgrade for extra armor and to 300/6 for huge hp, huge range. archons are good but not as good as thors/ultras/collosus and should not cost as much.


Like I said, when you look at the number, 800 looks a lot bigger and better than 510 BUT you have to take into account that ultras are both armored and bio which means they take BONUS dmg from units designed to destroy armored types.

In the end, you have a 800 hp unit that takes double (or increased) dmg from a lot of unit types, making its effective health to around 400 hp (maybe a bit exaggerated but you get my point) versus a 510 hp units that takes no bonus dmg from any source (effective health is still 510).

Only one cost 300 minerals/6 food and 50 sec spawn time versus the other that cost 200/4 food and 45 spawn time.

And I tried that ultra stacking with a lot of queens, I was virtually capped with ultras and queens and the toss still rolled over me like there was nothing, he didn't even have a single colossus in there, just a bunch of archons with like 3-4 immortals in there. He still had supply to get some scouts out to counter the bcs my ally was making.
btw, how much do they get for dmg upgrade? that MIGHT be problematic. i also do really like the idea of removing immolation dmg, they should be anti-light but that is different from absolutely destroying light (use colossus for that)


Archons get +3 vs all and + 4 vs bio same as in melee

10/26/2012 11:49 PMPosted by Alfred
Only one cost 300 minerals/6 food and 50 sec spawn time versus the other that cost 200/4 food and 45 spawn time.


Archons take 50 seconds to build it's immortals that are 45
10/26/2012 11:49 PMPosted by Alfred
And I tried that ultra stacking with a lot of queens, I was virtually capped with ultras and queens and the toss still rolled over me like there was nothing, he didn't even have a single colossus in there, just a bunch of archons with like 3-4 immortals in there. He still had supply to get some scouts out to counter the bcs my ally was making.


that is strange, it works for me. can you pose the replay, i am interested in seeing what we are doing differently so it works for one of us but not the other.

also, as an aside. you WANT your toss enemy to build colossus and dont want them to get immos when using ultras. colossus dont even scratch the paint on an ultra, so to speak.

aside #2, bc (or any terran air) is a horrible choice vs archons. terran wants tanks with marauder support and 2-3 thors + 8 or so marines to deal with the immos. of course that depends on what the other enemy in the lane was going.
Edited by MrQuackums on 10/27/2012 10:46 PM PDT
Archons are fine as they are. The are easily countered by ultra/queens, marauder/marines or anything mechanical already. Take away their splash damage, and they would just be worthless.

Scourges don't need a nerf because they are just worthless if you stay away from air units. Ground to air exists in this game.

You can pick any race you want to in Nexus Wars. Aside normal counters, you have to account synergies units have with each other. I think most people coming to this thread to complain on how OP a unit is are missing the point of synergies.
my 2 cents,
NW is balanced, theres always a counter to something, its honestly just up to you to figure out how to do it. Like Mirri said above, if you need to use more then one race, use more then one race, its really not that hard.

Archons have many counters, thors, tanks, ultras, etc, but u can also use damage dealing units that may normally be weaker against archons alone, but mix in some meatshield units, for example a couple of ultras, and some BL behind, like quackums mentioned. Figure out other alternatives by yourself, there are plenty of ways to deal with it

scourges can be dealt with by ground like said above, but there are some air alternatives. Depending on how the opponent syncs their scourges, there are different combinations that u can use to take it out.

Also keep in mind, scourge is air to air only, in order for scourge to take out most air combinations, you do need quite a few of them, meaning the majority of supply is devoted to scourge. Simple answer? switch to ground with AA THAT COUNTERS THE OTHER UNITS BEING USED examples being hydra, infestor, stalker, archon, thor, marine, even sentry is a viable option if you know what you are doing with them. (am i missing any)

another thing to note with scourge is that any air unit prioritises killing medivacs and dingles before other air units (including colossus) for some strange reason. try mixing a few medivacs just to draw attention as meat shields so your air units can kill the scourge without taking damage
Edited by llInsaneIll on 10/30/2012 8:21 PM PDT
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