StarCraft® II

[Nexus Wars] - Changelog/Suggestions (3)

Posts: 8

upgraedes: people fear wasting money and that any amount of inefficiency is a bad thing, its the loss aversion fallacy (people are more afraid to lose any given value than happy to gain an equal amount).


This is not about loss aversion fallacy. Doing upgrades too early is suboptimal. Your suggestion to do upgrades at supply 16-20 is exactly analogous to doing a 4gate on ladder. Yes it may be powerful on noobs, but it's chance of winning is extremely lowered versus better players. If you know you're the better player, then if you want to play for the win, you go for eco; just like better players go for eco than 4gate on ladder. I have no idea what economic principle you're trying to use here, because you contradict it anyways. If upgrading gained you an equal amount as to maxing, then upgrading is not inefficient.

Another idea that you put out has never made sense to me, that since zerg units are "cheaper", your income will rise faster. Most games I don't do zerg, and in those games I never see a zerg gaining income faster than me. What units are cheaper exactly? Hydralisk compared to stalker? Roach compared to firebat? Queen compared to ?? I love hydralisks, so I will do that comparison to stalkers. You may get hydras 1 round of income earlier than a stalker, but hydras are so much easier to kill, and the bounty the other side gets from the easier to kill hydra will negate the fact that you got it 1 round earlier. I guess your logic is referring to the idea that you could get 5 hydras for the price of 4 stalkers, but you're not getting a free lunch. Stalkers, although less dps, are more expensive because they're tankier and faster (much faster than hydra w/o creep, if you factor the queen in, you have to factor that into money comparison too). So while you may be getting that income ever so slightly faster, you're giving the advantage back by using glass cannons, so you don't come out ahead.
Posts: 91
This is not about loss aversion fallacy.


your right, getting upgrades early has nothing to do with loss aversion. i was talking about why ppl dont switch races more often

Doing upgrades too early is suboptimal.


not if you get 1 or 2 at 20 supply, dont get more than 1-2 on top of that until 20 mins or so when you get the 900min upgrade for pylon (also, i actually paid attention after i posted to when i upgrade and i actually get them at 20 or so instead of the 16 i said last time, sorry). then 1-2 more until you max pylon and get 2nd hero. THEN you start maxing upgrades

Your suggestion to do upgrades at supply 16-20 is exactly analogous to doing a 4gate on ladder. Yes it may be powerful on noobs, but it's chance of winning is extremely lowered versus better players.


the difference is that on ladder you have to get started on the build before you get a read on the enemy while in NW you can size them up (look at record) as well as get a fairly good idea on what they are planning (2 lings? rine then bike? 2 zels then dt? all of those are tells as to their general early game plan and all of them are visible long before you need to start planning for upgrades). also you can see their income (if a toss's income jumps from 13 to 18 he got stalker or dt, if a zerg gains 6 income then he got a lurker or infestor)

I have no idea what economic principle you're trying to use here, because you contradict it anyways


...the principle of higher income = better?

i am not sure what you mean by this.

Another idea that you put out has never made sense to me, that since zerg units are "cheaper", your income will rise faster.


all i know for sure (as in, i am working from experience instead from math) is when i play zerg, and when i play infantry heavy terran, i almost always have the highest income for the first 20 mins or so and more often than not for the next 20-30 mins as well. (yes after that i usually loose the income lead cause i am too busy microing heros to remember to build units so i stay at about 60-70 supply.)

now that i think about it: it is probably because you are not waiting to stockpile $ to build that 150 tank or 175 immo so your hydra gets dropped faster. yes, it is only 1 (or 2 or 3)
cycle(s) sooner but those add up. i know hydras dont make armys but all but 1 zerg ground unit is 150 or less (same for terran but they rely more on their expensive units than zerg do) which means that is a lot of 1-3 cycle advantages when the toss is dropping archon/immos. so remember everytime you are 10 or so mins short of your next unit your zerg enemy already has placed a hydra and is partway to his next

What units are cheaper exactly? Hydralisk compared to stalker? Roach compared to firebat? Queen compared to ??


it is less about individual unit comparisons and more about overall army costs.

1)zerg units overlap more than other races (roaches and hydras are more similar than bats and rines or zels and stalkers) which means you dont have to change up your army as much so less tech goes to waste which saves money

2)almost every zerg unit is 50 minerals per supply (lurkers are more, infestors are less, i think all others are the same but not entirely sure). income is based on total cost of buildings so lower cost per supply = higher income (yes, this is endgame so is only tangentially related)

3)zerg upgrades are the best value per mineral. +1 attack on a swarm is worth more than the +1 or +3 most toss units get due to the sheer numbers of incoming attacks, same with +1 armor. also, zerg ground armor has the biggest effect of any single armor upgrade in the game (terran upgrades effect the least amount of supply and toss upgrades only effect about 2/3 of the hp in the toss ground army (get shield up to get the other 1/3 upgraded)

for the stalker/hydra example:

you are right about all of that, except for the fact that in situations in when the toss player wants 4 stalkers the zerg player generally wants a roach/hydra mix. that is either 3 hydras and 2.5 roaches or 2 hydras/4 roaches (unless we are talkking vs air in which case zerg want hydra, infestor, and/or queen depending on the specific air threat). the way to do this is to compare the two to a unit they both counter, i dont know toss at all so i dont know what stalkers are a hard counter to (other than hydras or units you generally dont see as a main force).

So while you may be getting that income ever so slightly faster, you're giving the advantage back by using glass cannons, so you don't come out ahead.


2 things: (A) glass cannons in a tug game is not quite as bad as it seems. ALL armys have a hard time holding the line so not being good at this is not especially horrible. (not exactly income related)

(B)roaches are the 3rd best dmg soaks in the game, ultras are the best, and zerg get both of them. if your army is a glass cannon you are doing it wrong. thats not even mentioning queen heal make the line hold longer AND make the ball less fragile AND creep brings reinforcements faster* (and can take a decent amount of dmg themselves)

*i am still on the fence on whether move speed matters, except for melee units of course.

an aside:
i am NOT saying all of this to show that zerg is the best of the 3 races. i am saying this to show that zerg is as good as the other 2 despite their weaknesses (vulnerable to splash, some attacks get bonus dmg only vs zerg, being generally squishy, creep being able to do more harm than good)
Posts: 105
going over 3 weeks and my stats still not recording please some one help me with nexus wars stats
Posts: 176
12/02/2012 12:24 AMPosted by shnoid
going over 3 weeks and my stats still not recording please some one help me with nexus wars stats


My Documents -> Starcraft 2 -> Accounts -> Numbers -> Number-LetterNumber-Number-Numbers -> Banks ->

There should be a bunch of files in here. The one you want contains the same format as the paste below from my Nexus Wars bankfile.

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<Bank version="1">
<Section name="Section">
<Key name="ljo">
<Value int="3"/>
</Key>
<Key name="changelog">
<Value int="4"/>
</Key>
<Key name="fes">
<Value int="220"/>
</Key>
<Key name="awf">
<Value int="1261"/>
</Key>
<Key name="builder">
<Value int="8"/>
</Key>
<Key name="elo">
<Value int="1974"/>
</Key>
</Section>
<Signature value=""/>
</Bank>

Except with your record in the numbers.

When you find this file, close notepad and go back to the directory you found it in. Right click it and go to "Properties" - is "read-only" checked? If it's not, then I'm not sure. The only other thing I can imagine is that you're ending the Starcraft process before the game has a chance to update your bank file.

As a test, if the file was not set to read only, my advice would be to back up your file (copy, paste and rename Bank.SC2BankBAK or something) and remove your bank file from that directory, then play another game of Nexus Wars, and respond here if your record does not update from 0/0 after that.

If your record does not update after you confirm it's not read-only, and you do not receive a new record after attempting to start again from scratch, then I suggest running the SC2 Wings of Liberty repair utility.

If nothing described above works, then my only advice is to reinstall Wings of Liberty entirely.

Post again if you have any more questions and I'll do my best to answer them.

And for reference, if you just edit your record in notepad it will entirely erase your stats. It's possible to change it with a third party program but I do not endorse creating a false record or downloading ANY third party programs to "enhance" your experience with Starcraft 2.
Edited by Mirri on 12/2/2012 2:04 AM PST
Posts: 1
Chiming in on zerg being "faster" to generate income:

I did some math. All the units have a fixed ratio between cost and income. Building cheaper units may help you get a few extra minerals at the beginning of the game. There's another important number though - the income/supply ratio.

When you're maxxed out there's no way to increase your income. It's completely dependent on what you've made up until that point, so you'll likely want to have units that give you more income per supply they take up. The numbers below are assuming you have 90/90 supply of each unit (I know that's impossible, but it standardizes things a bit)


Income Units
300 (P) Void Ray
270 (T) Reaper, Spectre, Viking
(Z) Madbao, Infestor, Corruptor
(P) Storm Assassin, Phoenix
225 (Z) Queen, Broodlord
(P) Stalker, Aeroscythe
210 (T) Dingle, Battlecruiser
(P) Carrier
180 (T) Marine, Marauder, Firebat, Hellion
(T) Siege Tank, Vash, Medivac, Bahsee
(Z) Zergling, Hydralisk, Krazylee, Mutalisk, Scourge
(P) Archon, Colossus, Scout
158 (P) Immortal
135 (Z) Roach, Lurker
(P) Zealot, Sentry


From this, void rays are the most "valuable" unit to make. Go figure!
Posts: 176
Chiming in on zerg being "faster" to generate income:

I did some math. All the units have a fixed ratio between cost and income. Building cheaper units may help you get a few extra minerals at the beginning of the game. There's another important number though - the income/supply ratio.

When you're maxxed out there's no way to increase your income. It's completely dependent on what you've made up until that point, so you'll likely want to have units that give you more income per supply they take up. The numbers below are assuming you have 90/90 supply of each unit (I know that's impossible, but it standardizes things a bit)


Income Units
300 (P) Void Ray
270 (T) Reaper, Spectre, Viking
(Z) Madbao, Infestor, Corruptor
(P) Storm Assassin, Phoenix
225 (Z) Queen, Broodlord
(P) Stalker, Aeroscythe
210 (T) Dingle, Battlecruiser
(P) Carrier
180 (T) Marine, Marauder, Firebat, Hellion
(T) Siege Tank, Vash, Medivac, Bahsee
(Z) Zergling, Hydralisk, Krazylee, Mutalisk, Scourge
(P) Archon, Colossus, Scout
158 (P) Immortal
135 (Z) Roach, Lurker
(P) Zealot, Sentry


From this, void rays are the most "valuable" unit to make. Go figure!


It's unfortunate that even though they are the highest income to supply ratio, they're kind of terrible :(

I have a request, by the way.

Could we get a "Nexus Wars: Tournament Edition" with observer slots?

I have a friend who wants to run a tournament, I would like it if we could have an Observer slot for the game so that we could possibly stream games. I can see the Observer slot breaking standard play if someone is broadcasting to a friend on a team, that's why I ask for a separate version with the slot, possibly.
Edited by Mirri on 12/3/2012 2:13 PM PST
Posts: 105
it was not checked and thank you so much for helping me out and now to see if it works
Posts: 105
That didn't work so I reinstalled sc2 and that didn't work either. Any other suggestions?
Posts: 176
12/05/2012 07:37 AMPosted by shnoid
That didn't work so I reinstalled sc2 and that didn't work either. Any other suggestions?


Not that I can think of. I'm sorry :(

I'm not by any means an expert with the in-game saves.

I suggest you go to the Tech Support forum and tell them that you are having trouble with your bank files not updating when you win or lose games that use them. Tell them what you've already done.
Posts: 105
will do thanks for the help
Posts: 142
Diablo 3 sucked, let's play nexus wars
Posts: 35
The link on the nexus wars page in game should be updated to this thread probably.
Posts: 35
I know its brought up a lot.

But more heroes and builders would be cool.

Spitballing ideas with mirri. Super heroes where you could like merge say two zeratuls for a dark archon. (according the wiki they have a models and sound files) Not really sure where but that would be cool. Or zera and kerrigan for hybrid. Not sure about the other combinations or how you would even balance something like that to make it worth while but.

A little levithan builder would be fun too or a loki.
Posts: 91
i hate to be the guy to bring this up but carriers are OP.

for 1 reason and 1 reason only: they get +8 dmg per upgrade. interceptors need to be like infested terrans and gain .75 (.5?) instead of a full point.

.75 means +6 per upgrade, still very significant.

also, medivacs are UP. the upgrade should be it 'attacks' faster or heals more hp per point of energy or something instead of the dual beam
Posts: 176
i hate to be the guy to bring this up but carriers are OP.

for 1 reason and 1 reason only: they get +8 dmg per upgrade. interceptors need to be like infested terrans and gain .75 (.5?) instead of a full point.

.75 means +6 per upgrade, still very significant.

also, medivacs are UP. the upgrade should be it 'attacks' faster or heals more hp per point of energy or something instead of the dual beam


I feel like Carriers are fine, 8 damage is reduced per point of armor versus them as well. I find that scourges, corruptors, and battlecruisers all work well against them.

I also think that Medivacs are fine where they are right now, they will make the difference in an early game push without becoming something that is necessary to mass if you have a biological army.
Posts: 11
Id like to know the Counter to Mass Banes and Mass scourge? Cause as far as I can see, there Isnt one. You go Air to counter the Banes, and the Scourge eat you alive, you go ground to counter the Scourge, the Banes eat you alive. So other then Massing Banes and Scourge yourself, please let me know how to deal with this. Ive this this quite a few times in my games, tried all kinds of combos, and NONE have beat this. IMHO and in MOST peoples opinions, Scourge and Banes should have either Higher Min/Pop costs, or put a cap on how many you can make.
Posts: 264
This is a change log for change suggestions besides unit balance.First up:It needs a drop player function. If a player refuses to move in the first 30 seconds of the game, control of player should be given to the remaining team mates and the minerals from that player should be distributed evenly. The dropped player should still be a part of the game, just his unit should be controllable and his income should be split with the remaining team members. This should also be allowed by majority vote control. Similar to Desert Strike.

#1
1 minute ago

esoteric

the correct link needs to be updated in the loading screen for suggestions.
Posts: 91
the counter to scourge is to go ground.

the counter to banes is splash + marauder with slow (you need both, if your not terran then get a marine and build 6 UNsynced marauders, if you are terran then switch out and get storms + collosus (toss need both) or go to zerg and get lurker). also if they are going banes, you need dmg upgrades much more than armor. going air vs banes is a big mistake, the banes will just run under your units and destroy your buildings. UNsynced ultras and archons help but they are more of a stop-gap to tank the few that get through the splash. also a FEW banes of your own help quite a bit: get 1 or 2 for every 6 or 7 they have (remember to unsync them (notice a pattern?)) and be sure to keep your zerg melee attack even with their armor ups.

yes, it is a pain in the !@# to have to do all this complicated stuff to handle such a simple strat but it is counterable.

also, there was a buff to banes a few months back that may need to be rolled back; they got +5 hp, which may have pushed them over the edge into being too good (surviving 1 extra hit is huge for a swarm unit)

scourge need a rebalance but no update for months (lilman playing HOTS?). my idea is to lower their spawn rate by 1/3 or so but only spawn 1 at a time,make dmg upgrades less effective, and MAYBE up their food cost by 1
Edited by MrQuackums on 12/31/2012 12:35 AM PST
Posts: 264
could also drop total unit control of hydras to 1.5 or so.
Posts: 264
unit prices and damages etc... arepretty correct. think the control amount for a few of them needs to be adjusted.
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