[Discussion]SC II Arcade TODO Checklist

Posts: 928
10/25/2012 03:10 PMPosted by Cherry
1. The list is dictated by Soga.

Aw, personal vendetta? That's adorable. I accept, Cherry! I'll be your arch-nemesis!

10/25/2012 03:10 PMPosted by Cherry
2. It lacks an air of suggestion. You're not suggesting these things to Blizzard, you're speaking for the thousands of members in the community, which you don't have the authority or approval to do.

I'm aware that the post does not carry an air of suggestion and does, in fact, carry a heavier tone akin to that of an ultimatum. That's because it is more or less an ultimatum. We've been very gentle with Blizzard over the past two and half years, the results of which have been rather disappointing. We are still paying customers, and this list is a list of things that will be necessary to reignite our interest in continuing to pay Blizzard for their products. Simple enough.

But don't mistake this for being bitter. We're not bitter, otherwise we would have just given up and moved on from SC2. Rather, we're hopeful. We're optimistically unhappy with Blizzard. We believe it is entirely possible to get Battle.net 2 to reflect what the community wants and NEEDS. Honestly, even the blues admitted that up until only a month or two ago they had been completely neglecting the custom game community. They didn't read the forum. They didn't take suggestions or ideas from the forum. Rather, they took ideas and suggestions from a mediator, and if FockeWolf is to be believed, a rather subpar mediator at that. Now that we have a direct connection to Blizzard, we have an opportunity we simply didn't have before.

As for authority -- no, you're right. I don't take it on myself to speak for the thousands in the community. That's why I'm working hard to review what people are saying, to ask people for their thoughts and poll them on how they feel about the current system and what ought to be done about it. Granted, as the manager of the list, I admit that the summaries I post may be filtered through my own bias. At least I can admit that and I am willing to change the contents of the list if confronted and given valid reasons to do so.

10/25/2012 03:10 PMPosted by Cherry
3. You're not a developer, you don't get to decide what they HAVE to do.

We're paying customers. We have every right to insist on what producers sell to us. If we don't want what producers produce, they simply don't get our money. What's the point of producing if you don't get anything for it? It's a happy relationship: you scratch my back, I'll scratch your back.

10/25/2012 03:10 PMPosted by Cherry
4. Its going to provoke argument. No where do you state that these are the things you believe they should change. You do state these are the things they MUST change.

This is the internet. Everything provokes argument. Even the previous sentence will provoke an argument. What's new?

10/25/2012 03:10 PMPosted by Cherry
5. We already have a thread for suggestions. This entire forum is for a discussion of Custom Games, which includes suggestions. Why do we want a thread for suggestions inside of a forum for suggestions?

Collecting posts under a thread makes for better organization and simplifies the blues' work so they don't have to go hunting all over the forum to find what needs to be done. And because this is not merely a thread for suggestions. It is a thread to show what needs to be done and to mark progress on the process of implementing these fixes and changes. It also means we get one link we can give out to people to get them involved in this community-wide dialogue.

~

Now, before this gets out of hands, I'd still like to have more opinions on what to mark as critical and non-critical. Any of you lurkers out there, please feel welcome to post, even if it's your first post on these forums. Thanks!
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Posts: 400
OP addresses a lot of what needs to be done. On the Refresh issue, perhaps there can be a button the host can press once every minute to refresh his map. So they can't spam it, and only non-AFK hosts get their lobby to the top. This can only work with unique lobbies though, naming is not necessarily needed however (though personally I would prefer it). It could possibly be an issue with advertising bots (e.g. make a map title advertising something and have an autoclicker refresh), but given the fact that SC2 lobbies automatically start when full, this might curtail this attempt. Even then that's essentially nonissue, it took forever for WC3 to get to what it is now.

Review Downvoting. With the Review system I suggest that downvotes be possibly too. Sure, everyone would love to have a happy slappy perfect world where it wasn't necessary to dislike something, but if we want quality reviews, then you need a better filtering system. For instance, some of the top reviews on Mafia right now are outright lies. There's nothing obscene about them though, so they're not worthy of being reportable. Understandably part of this is because the Mafia community is trollish in general, but it's also because some guy got mad at DR and spammed the chat channel for weeks to get people to upvote his review. So this is an extreme outlier case. But the fact that this is possible is disconcerting. This suggestion is in Skunk's list. If Blizzard wants to keep it all go-go happy and fresh, it need not show the downvotes, all it should do is take away 1 Helpful, so it goes 2 helpfuls to 1 instead of 2 helpfuls 1 unhelpful. Then if it gets enough it just stands at 0 helpfuls and goes no lower.

Hover Preview. Something that might also help, but would be a bigger UI change, is that when you hover over a game in the Open Games list, it brings up the map preview, i.e. the hand that Left 2 Die has, the picture that shows up on Up and Coming. At the moment, the list looks incredibly bland. It's actually even blander than WC3's was. In WC3, if you had the map downloaded, you would get the minimap preview or a custom screen they had. It adds visual flair, which makes the game feel less monotonous. Even if you didn't have it downloaded, a question mark came up, so there was at least still some art. If you had a hover preview (or something analogous) on the Open Games list, it'd give people a chance to get interested in the game, or for the author to rope people in with an interesting graphic. Either way, the list as is is incredibly dull.

Genre Customization. Being able to set one's own genre would be nice. There's so many "Other" maps. I understand there's a sorting option, but why not have the defaults and simply have the "Other" sort option literally sort for other genre descriptions? Most maps on BNet are more than simply one genre. It's sad that a game like Island Defense has no proper classification, despite its gameplay being classic throughout custom gaming history. Is it Action? Sure. But it's also Strategy. And Survival. And even Tower Defense. So you get about half the game list being Other, which says that Blizzard either needs to add a ton more genres or it should just let mapmakers be able to customize their Genre. And really, more customization options only mean more good things. To repeat, for any unique genre names, you can still just have them be listed when one sorts by "Other".

Better Preview/News Navigation. When I go to Overview, where mapmakers can put up to 5 preview images, I should be able to navigate to the next image by hitting my arrow key or by being able to click on the side of an image, and if I want to enlarge I just click anywhere near the middle. When I hover near the sides an arrow to go left or right respectively should appear. "Click the tiny boxes to navigate" is 90s website design, it really needs to be brought into modern times. This concept can also be applied to the news you see when you log in.

Opting out of Website Warning. When I click to go to a mapmaker's website, the warning screen should pop up, but I should also have a box to check off that says I can choose not to see this warning again if I want to. I've obviously made the decision to go to the website. Of course, the reason Blizzard does this is a legal issue, but they would also be legally covered if we choose the option to not see that warning again. Because this box pops up every time, maybe I won't feel so inclined to visit now, which makes me less involved in that map which means that map is less likely to grow.

Remove Empty Space. In Overview (again), those boxes have empty space below them above the Play / Create Private Game buttons. Why? Why do we have that empty space there? Let the boxes use up that space, so I can be shown more text without having to scroll.

Open to Public.Also, this is very, very important, we need the option to Open to Public from Private Games again. This was one of the few things BNet 2.0 did right. I do not know why we went backwards on this and removed this option.

Friends System Overhaul.Now, for the friends system. BNet 2.0 also went backwards on this, this game is very antisocial. WC3 friends were much better, for the most part. I should be able to see what games my friends are playing, at least, mutual friends. This should be even easier given the fact that lobbies have standard names in SC2, so if my friend is playing Squadron TD it'll just say he's playing SquadronTD. Call me crazy but I don't want to be throwing out my real name and email address (remember - it's a detail you use to log in to your account and Blizzard wants you to give that information out publicly in order to get a Real-ID friend). Frankly, this was just a botched attempt to be "social" and to keep up with Facebook when they didn't need to. They just moved over most of the benefits of WC3 friends to Real ID. If I have a mutual... "Battle-tag".. friend, I should be able to join his open games, see what he's playing, and so on. Part of the reason the custom scene of SC2 has fared so poorly is because the game does not lend itself to community building, it is a very antisocial game. And custom games thrive on the communities behind them. Clans in HotS will help this, but the friends system needs a major overhaul. If I'm close friends with a person, I'll tell them my name. There's no need for me to see it all the time over their username. Trust me Blizzard, I'll be able to remember it's them when I see their account name. Don't force me to give out my full name and email just so I can get a friends system that's about 70% of what WC3 was. Similarly, I do not need to have my real name show up above my friends list. I know who I am. This can be a potential problem for streamers as they will have their real name show up to possibly hundreds or thousands of people when they may not want that.

Achievements. Add as many more achievements as possible. WoW got this right. Most achievements on SC2 are just boring grinding achievements. I had plenty of fun grinding out the unique achievements with friends. Achievements keep people playing and having fun. It would be an absolute boon if Custom Maps could use achievements that actually show up in the SC2 interface with their own graphic. They need not count to the achievement score in the top right. This will greatly promote custom game playing as people try to get specific achievements. You can let them have their own points too, it'll just be specific for that game (i.e. having 1000/1000 achievement points in Squadron TD will only show up in its own tab, it won't be added to the top right). There would be a great many ways to implement this, so it's pointless of me to try to describe how this could fit in with the current UI as there's tons of ways to do it.

Profile Editing. Why was another feature from WC3 removed? There's empty space in the profile region. Let us write up whatever we want about ourselves. Have a Report button if you're worried people will write objectionable content.

I could go on and on about the endless quibbles or gripes I have with the SC2 UI, but this will do for now as it's already a wall of text. I don't see how any of this can be controversial, though I'm sure someone will find a way, but there's so many common sense fixes/additions that the UI could do with right now.
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Posts: 1,894
I'm mostly in agreement. I think it would be fine to leave the featured games list because it looks cool and it highlights some maps that are very creative. If we remove the top 10 list from the main arcade page there should be plenty of room for the open lobby list and featured games to display together.
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Posts: 535
I pretty much all agree with EagleMan's suggestions. Although I consider them all to be in the non-critical category. Still, I consider "Open to Public" and "Friends System Overhaul" to be the most important of his suggestions.

Some comments :

Genre Customization - I guess a max of 4-5 genres should be enforced instead of potentially letting a mapmaker flag all possible genres.


Open to Public - No idea either why it was removed and it should be easy enough to just re-add it.

It is easier to setup a private game, ensure all your friends are in (especially if one of them is a slow downloader) then make it public. Otherwise, some public players steal wanted slots then you can't kick them in favor of your friend being late, etc. Then ultimately, you are forced in picking public games or being with your friends rather than both.


Friends System Overhaul - Yes, it's one of many reasons why B.Net 2.0 is very anti-social.

Seeing mutual friends' map name of their game can help to :
- Gauge if you can drag your friend out of a testing or short game.
- Start conversations in general ( ex : "oh you are playing X? Is it any good?")
- Take a quick educated guess on which of your friends are playing as a group (all on the same map) so you can join them after they finish their game.
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Posts: 467
10/25/2012 03:16 PMPosted by Cherry
No we don't. We have IRC. You cannot be logged into the editor and Sc2 at the same time, which means an ingame channel is a stupid idea.


Just some clarification. You can most certainly be logged into the editor and SC2 at the same time. Lol @ throwing out the word "stupid" so easily when you're wrong.

Make sure SC2 is not open -> Open Map -> Test Map -> Exit Game -> Log-In

While logged in, Test Map again -> Success.

Though, they should make it so the program doesn't have to be opened through the editor to test and be logged in at the same time.


Try logging in to the editor to publish something whilst logged into Starcraft II, even when launched from the Editor.

If I have Sc2 open I have _MY_ work open, I am not sitting idle in a chat channel or even the Bnet UI.

Therefore, think twice before trying to dethrone the current king of Mapster.

Thanks, bye. <3u2!

Stupid comment -_-
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Posts: 467

I'm aware that the post does not carry an air of suggestion and does, in fact, carry a heavier tone akin to that of an ultimatum. That's because it is more or less an ultimatum. We've been very gentle with Blizzard over the past two and half years, the results of which have been rather disappointing. We are still paying customers, and this list is a list of things that will be necessary to reignite our interest in continuing to pay Blizzard for their products. Simple enough.

But don't mistake this for being bitter. We're not bitter, otherwise we would have just given up and moved on from SC2. Rather, we're hopeful. We're optimistically unhappy with Blizzard. We believe it is entirely possible to get Battle.net 2 to reflect what the community wants and NEEDS. Honestly, even the blues admitted that up until only a month or two ago they had been completely neglecting the custom game community. They didn't read the forum. They didn't take suggestions or ideas from the forum. Rather, they took ideas and suggestions from a mediator, and if FockeWolf is to be believed, a rather subpar mediator at that. Now that we have a direct connection to Blizzard, we have an opportunity we simply didn't have before.

As for authority -- no, you're right. I don't take it on myself to speak for the thousands in the community. That's why I'm working hard to review what people are saying, to ask people for their thoughts and poll them on how they feel about the current system and what ought to be done about it. Granted, as the manager of the list, I admit that the summaries I post may be filtered through my own bias. At least I can admit that and I am willing to change the contents of the list if confronted and given valid reasons to do so.


No one has publically announced that they have invested more time than myself or Dryeyece into the editor, therefore, if anyone speaks on this subject it should be me. I however, refuse to speak on behalf of you because it is people like you who are ruining it for the rest of us.

The developers here do so much for us and we in turn treat them like !@#$. I am not a Blizzard fanboy, far from it, I think Blizzard made some really poor choices but they are Blizzard, they never stop trying to improve things - and everything is always 20/20 in hindsight. I do not complain about the things I think they did poorly, they know it, I know it, any developer or designer can see where they could have done things better and you know what? They are improving things, they just run in Blizzard time (TM). There is no point continually posting these things in a destructive manner or poorly conceived tone.

Blizzard Devs/Reps have always read the forums, they just never responded. I knew they were reading the forums a year ago, near two years ago. They follow Mapster, they follow most major gaming websites, they are not stupid. Yes it sucks when you get no feedback, no communication. I had enough one day and posted a huge rant, what happens? The next day Dustin Browder posts his infamous post saying he wants to get more in touch with the community ... am I really that important? Of course not, it was just bad timing on my part and made me look like a tool.

I posted numerous messages to Blizzard, I posted on my blog that all we want was for Developers to get in contact with us, and allow us to show that we exist. They are doing that, and instead of being really grateful that they are here helping us, the majority insists that Blizzard listens to THEM. When the truth is, they are no bodies, they have no major project under way, they have no major projects created in the past, Blizzard has always been in contact with the people that mattered and listened to them because the people who are high up in the community achieve that through skill - especially people skills.

Regardless of Skill, if you are a douche you will never achieve much. Look at Mephs ... I love Mephs, I get on really well with him but he does lack people skills. It honestly does not matter how good you are - if you cannot work in a team you cannot succeed in the corporate world. The problem is that this community is mainly filled with kids (not age - mental status) who have never been inside a boardroom, who have never met rich and powerful (-_-) people, who know how to act and how to talk to come across as assertive but not as a tool.

That being said, I have worked with some of the most powerful people in my state and you know what? For the most part I had a big bad word stamped across my forehead because they looked down on me because I was a designer, regardless if I was a Managing Director (CEO in US Terms) or not. However, when not in a conference they were for the most part really great people, they just liked to show off their power as anyone does in that position, and it is easiest to pick on the "designer" because all he does is make things look pretty, and drawing a picture isn't real work.

By being diplomatic and not telling them to go jump in a lake, I made contacts, I landed contracts, I succeeded because I knew when to bite my tounge, and when to speak up. You will not get anywhere mate by talking down to those people when you are in no uncertain terms in a position to do so.

Food for thought.
Edited by Dogmai on 10/28/2012 8:07 AM PDT
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Posts: 535
I personally suggest we ignore Dogmai's post. While he have a few valid points, it is too likely to derail the thread too heavily for the in-fighting about it then the thread more or less goes into dust as far the intended purpose goes.

I am sorry Dogmai but I honestly want this thread to go on. If you badly want, it can be debated in length in another thread.
Edited by Honejasi on 10/28/2012 8:29 AM PDT
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Posts: 467
How people react to my post which is just basic advice is up to them.

But I personally have seen enough attacks on the Developers in the last week to do me for the rest of the year. I am not impressed with the actions of a few who think they are representing the majority of UMS developers.

I have no issue with OP, but I think he is going about things the wrong way. If I see someone doing something wrong I will call them up on it, it is probably a cultural thing, relax mate.
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Posts: 1,894
Dogmai if you want to white knight for Blizzard then do it in your own thread. I encourage anyone else to also ignore him and simply report his posts in the hopes he doesn't derail this otherwise constructive thread.
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Posts: 535
Ash, I believe he already understood that. He doesn't need his posts reported. Otherwise, it will be you that will unintentionally derail the thread.

As for the thread itself, I believe we still needed to agree on the aspects I mentioned as "critical" or not so Soga can actually make it official in the first post.

I vote the following to be considered as critical :

- Default Open Games List
- Refreshing Games
- AFK Hosts


In addition, there are Eagleman's suggestions to agree/disagree/comment on.
Edited by Honejasi on 10/28/2012 10:24 AM PDT
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Posts: 928
I vote the following to be considered as critical :

- Default Open Games List
- Refreshing Games
- AFK Hosts


Any other agreements (disagreements welcomed) on this?

I'm going to go ahead and update the list by 11:00 AM PDT tomorrow, breaking down the list into critical and non-critical sections. If anybody has any reason to voice a disagreement, please do so here.

~

As for Eagleman's suggestions, I will post my thoughts on these tonight. I have other pressing matters to attend to right now. I'm just dropping in now to make sure this thread is still on subject and to continue moving forward the conversation.

To get the ball rolling: I do agree most strongly with his suggestion to re-introduce the Open To Public button for private games. I think in general, most of us agree that's a very important one to add to the list. I'm going to add it right now.
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Posts: 351


Just some clarification. You can most certainly be logged into the editor and SC2 at the same time. Lol @ throwing out the word "stupid" so easily when you're wrong.

Make sure SC2 is not open -> Open Map -> Test Map -> Exit Game -> Log-In

While logged in, Test Map again -> Success.

Though, they should make it so the program doesn't have to be opened through the editor to test and be logged in at the same time.


Try logging in to the editor to publish something whilst logged into Starcraft II, even when launched from the Editor.

If I have Sc2 open I have _MY_ work open, I am not sitting idle in a chat channel or even the Bnet UI.

Therefore, think twice before trying to dethrone the current king of Mapster.

Thanks, bye. <3u2!

Stupid comment -_-


Having a channel meant for constructing teams, finding testers, testers, etc. endorsed by Blizzard is a stupid idea because you can't publish a map and sit in the channel at the same time? Otherwise you're saying that you can't have the SC2 Editor and SC2 open at the same time, which is false (http://i50.tinypic.com/whm9as.png).

Seriously calling yourself the "king of Mapster" and calling my post stupid?

Edit: Though I do agree with what you posted in your rant.
Edited by Cherry on 10/29/2012 2:52 PM PDT
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Posts: 400
Soga you don't need to respond to all of them. I was just listing things I could see off the top of my head as UI problems, most of them aren't critical things as was said.


The developers here do so much for us and we in turn treat them like !@#$. I am not a Blizzard fanboy, far from it, I think Blizzard made some really poor choices but they are Blizzard, they never stop trying to improve things - and everything is always 20/20 in hindsight.

We've been complaining about numerous things since beta that have never been resolved. Even some of those issues were only half-handedly addressed by now. Pretty much everything we're complaining about today (besides stuff put in with new patches), we've complained about since the start.

So no. I disagree. Here it is not 20/20. SC2 clearly failed to replicate many of the features which made WC3 so successful, and the lack of many of these crucial features erupted enourmous, immediate complaint during the SC2 beta. And these complaints were never really addressed at all until Blizzard saw what a husk the custom game community was a year in, and apparently, and unfortunately, all these fixes are too little too late. If they had listened from the start, which was the entire point of the beta, it is quite plausible that the custom gaming community by now would be thriving, which would in turn indirectly benefit the esports market that Blizzard craves as more people are now playing SC2.
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Posts: 1,074
lets keep this thread at the top, If blizzard ignores it we know where they stand.
Edited by Incinerate on 10/29/2012 11:10 PM PDT
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Posts: 351
10/29/2012 11:10 PMPosted by Incinerate
lets keep this thread at the top, If blizzard ignores it we know where they stand.


I doubt they'll acknowledge such a detrimental thread as this one.
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Posts: 400
Well a thread like this is bound to generate both negative sentiments and valid points side-by-side, so it's quite understandable that this is one of those threads they read but don't respond to, otherwise you risk becoming a target for other's to focus their hate on (i.e. FockeWulf might get mad).

I try not to get annoyed with anyone in particular since I have no idea who's responsible for the perceived shortcomings of SC2, and it's certainly not the fault of the blues who are posting here. I'm fairly sure some of the design decisions came down from out-of-touch higher ups, but there's no proof either way so I'll just get irritated at the system that is Blizzard but none of the individuals themselves.
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Posts: 427
Actually, there's one suggestion/improvement I'd like Blizzard which not only involves the Arcade but this forum as well which is currently lacking that I'm surprised no one actually brought it up(or at least i've never seen it brought up): The lack of an ability to e-mail/pm a User that is not logged on to battle.net. I've found it terribly annoying/inconvenient that I can't e-mail a specific user/friend, especially other mappers or testers, without getting their e-mails personally from them. While I understand the reason for this may be to prevent spam on the user's part, but the least Blizzard could do is to allow players to enable showing their e-mail on their profile if they want to.

This can also serve to help Blizzard's PR, as sometimes ppl like me would want to msg old friends who no longer play but may be interested to get back in if the Arcade system is improved. At the moment there's just simply no way for me to contact anyone short of ppl that i know personally.
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Posts: 4,101
Why the heck is the OP reported lol, I personally love many of his suggestions.

Just logged in to like your post :)
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Posts: 928
10/30/2012 11:06 PMPosted by Kildare
The lack of an ability to e-mail/pm a User that is not logged on to battle.net. I've found it terribly annoying/inconvenient that I can't e-mail a specific user/friend, especially other mappers or testers, without getting their e-mails personally from them. While I understand the reason for this may be to prevent spam on the user's part, but the least Blizzard could do is to allow players to enable showing their e-mail on their profile if they want to.


That's actually an interesting thought. But what if there was an option to show e-mail in your profile for people who are mutually friends with you? Or if that still makes you hesitate, what if it was limited to RealID buddies?

10/30/2012 02:57 PMPosted by EagleMan
I'm fairly sure some of the design decisions came down from out-of-touch higher ups, but there's no proof either way so I'll just get irritated at the system that is Blizzard but none of the individuals themselves.


That's exactly the kind of sentiment I have as well. I don't blame any of the individuals at Blizzard, having no evidence of who the guilty parties who were responsible for some of the poor design decisions that came with Starcraft II are. So instead, this thread is about letting Blizzard know that there are very specific complaints we as a community have that, if addressed, would easily turn SC2 into one of the greatest games ever. We are fans that want the game to succeed, not to fail. Yes, we're generally upset right now, but we are satisfiable. That's what this thread shows.
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