StarCraft® II

"Queen and spawn larvae are fine" ..wait what

11/06/2012 03:17 PMPosted by MalZen
Daisy makes sense. Lorkacs theory only works when corruption is cast on a unit the corrupter can't potentially attack.


Technically--my theory is only relevant when there are high HP priority targets that need to sniped down quickly in order to gain a tactical advantage during a game.

For example, your opponent has 3-4 Thors out. Or maybe you're up against a failed DT transitioning into a 2base Archon/Zealot timing attacking with 3-4 archons.

You corrupt 1-2 of their main units and once those fall it doesn't matter that your corrupters are useless since you've tipped the fight in your favor tactically.

It still sucks since all it does is allow you a cheaper transition. Such as you were getting melee upgrades then suddenly needed 30+ roaches. Or maybe you were getting +2 range on your evo but your evo got sniped and you don't want to miss your timing so you make 1-2 corrupters instead to save time, etc...

And even then, in this overly specific scenarios--I'm sure there's a better way to resolve the problems than to fake +3 attack on your roaches. Because mathematically, any more than 3 and you better have things they can target.

+1 upgrade is 100/100
+2 upgrade is 150/150
+3 upgrade is 250/250

faking +2 upgrades with corruptors is 150/100 (a savings of 100 mins and 150 gas)
faking +3 on roaches is a savings of 350mins and 400gas (not counting not needing the Hive)

And even with all that, I still think corruption isn't worth it. At its best you would need it to allow you to better snipe 1-2 Thors vs Mech and hope he doesn't have tanks.
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Right but I think daisy was arguing that corruption is less effective than if the corrupter had just attacked? So like just vs air and col
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11/04/2012 11:48 PMPosted by LittleRaven
I always hear this from those I talk to about the state of Zerg. I loved Zerg in brood war, massable expendable units that you didn't need to concern yourself with.

Glad you like starcraft 2.

11/04/2012 11:48 PMPosted by LittleRaven
Why? How can they possibly be seen as good?

Zerg is dominating more or less.

11/04/2012 11:48 PMPosted by LittleRaven
I've heard some insane arguments too, "Mules are needed because terran lose minerals when their workers build something".

Its true. Terrans are mineral heavy too.

11/04/2012 11:48 PMPosted by LittleRaven
NO THEY DON'T *SLAP* You don't lose minerals, if anything the Zerg need mules for the extra cost for drones sacrificing themselves just to build something!

Zerg only needs hatcheries for production. Terrans need more buildings for more production. Plus without sacrificing the drone zerg players will have too many drones. The whole concept of zerg is to drone and get to hive. Because of how easy zerg can amass drones this building concept is more of a balance.

11/04/2012 11:48 PMPosted by LittleRaven
Justin beaver video gathers views on youtube.

...

11/04/2012 11:48 PMPosted by LittleRaven
The Zerg don't get to stack spawn larvae on the same hatchery, and to say "use it on other hatcheries" defeats the argument, otherwise you'd have a cooldown added to the mule so you can't spam them in succession.

Larvae can stack. Missing an inject is like missing a worker or a unit from this X building. Zerg doesn't really "miss workers" since larvae can stack (even though it is better to use larvae when it is available in most cases). Plus if you are a newbie (like the rest of us 70% are) you can just use the extra energy on creep and transfuse your late game army.

As for the Queen as a unit, people whinged enough when they had a much needed range buff.
They needed it desperately, it was that, or run awkwardly away like a duckling on creep from reapers and zealots. One Queen died to one Zealot, and the reaper nerfs may have never been needed if the queen had a decent attack to begin with!

No one cares for the reaper. It was the hellions and 4gaters. The queen is a support unit. Giving it too good of an attack will defeat the purpose of supporting and give it a combat role instead. 5 range qq is gone already.

11/04/2012 11:48 PMPosted by LittleRaven
Transfuse can only be spent on other queens, buildings, or anything that has the health in the first place to warrant it, in which case it should be more like the medivac auto heal.

Zerg units regen naturally. Plus to make queens like medivacs would give queens too much of a role. Queens are like a zerg's orbital and planetary fortress. They give larvae and give minor larvaeless, gasless defense. Don't overbuff them into an "infestor" unit that does everything.

11/04/2012 11:48 PMPosted by LittleRaven
Creep tumors don't have que'd pathing available, so that's more to the macro demand.... on top of needing to split up and micro your army so ultralisks don't spaz out when a zergling gets in the way, or zerg force goes up against a ball of MMM.

Creep tumors give speed and vision boost. Be greatful for this mechanic. Zerg micro is not as intense. Just split melee units and surround. The rest is basically 1-a fungal. A terran must shutter, split bio, manage siege tanks, smart stim, drop, and counter attack all at similar times (not to mention macro but luckily terrans can que. you still need to mule/make depos and buildings manually). This is why most if not all successful pro terrans are koreans with 200-300 apm. MMMVG and bio/mech are both one of the best terran strategies but they both require an enormous amount of apm. Be glad that zerg apm is more fundamental macro and creeping.

11/04/2012 11:48 PMPosted by LittleRaven
So much cool stuff was cut from The zerg as well, even before the beta I recall. morphing queen that gets stronger with your hatchery main? NOPE, multiple costing flimsy squishy things instead. Roachs lost regen above ground and therefore altogether (late tech+detection=roach useless) Lost lurker has no anti air flyer what so ever (corruptor only deals bonus to massive and has the worst spell in the game)

All races lost some BW units. Roaches are SOOO good. With the above ground regen players are forced to transition into awkward midgame comps of mass marauders and immortals. The corrupter has the most armor in tier 2 air units plus only vikings and voidrays "counters" them. Fungal is the best anti air in the game tied with marines (please no flame war). Queens are good like they are now. No change needed.
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11/04/2012 11:48 PMPosted by LittleRaven
One Queen died to one Zealot, and the reaper nerfs may have never been needed if the queen had a decent attack to begin with!


that was for 2v2, speedling + speed reaper was undefendable.

11/04/2012 11:48 PMPosted by LittleRaven
The Zerg don't get to stack spawn larvae on the same hatchery, and to say "use it on other hatcheries" defeats the argument, otherwise you'd have a cooldown added to the mule so you can't spam them in succession.


mules are resource collection, inject larva is unit production. the two are unrelated. if u compare inject larva to anything, it should be compared to terran missing a production cycle...oh wait they cant stack production cycles on the same barracks either

11/04/2012 11:48 PMPosted by LittleRaven
Transfuse can only be spent on other queens, buildings, or anything that has the health in the first place to warrant it, in which case it should be more like the medivac auto heal.


you are comparing queens to medivacs? what? one is a defense unit, the other is a dropship that heals bio... there is no comparison here either.

11/04/2012 11:48 PMPosted by LittleRaven
Creep tumors don't have que'd pathing available, so that's more to the macro demand.... on top of needing to split up and micro your army so ultralisks don't spaz out when a zergling gets in the way, or zerg force goes up against a ball of MMM.


now your complaining that zerg requires too much micro? my god can u atleast try to focus your QQ just a little bit? zerg requires the least micro of any race to begin with anyways.

im not even gonna bother to check your league, i doubt you have any games played. what a worthless post you made here.
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im not even gonna bother to check your league,


Good because league is irrelevant.
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11/06/2012 06:42 PMPosted by LittleRaven
Good because league is irrelevant.


oh i checked. 0 games played. looks like i was right. and the fact that you don't play this game and yet you think you are qualified to balance it is troubling to say the least.
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11/06/2012 05:08 PMPosted by MalZen
Right but I think daisy was arguing that corruption is less effective than if the corrupter had just attacked? So like just vs air and col


You got it. It's also less effective if there is air or giraffes around that the corruptor could be attacking (which is generally why we build them in the first place). If not then the damage could be more than compensated for by spending the money on more directly offensive units.

If the corruptor is sitting around doing nothing (eg. waiting for greater spire) then sure, it's usually a good idea to start spewing corruption on large units. Though due to focus fire and the volley mechanics it usually ends up taking the same amount of volleys to kill off a unit anyway, more if it is an air unit like my previous example.

This is the part I feel Lorkac is not taking into consideration, but aside from that I agree with his posts, particularly the last.
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Mules being on a cool down timer like inject larvae is what it should be. There is noting wrong with that because you can still have that constant mule as long as you don't mess up the timing but you can't just drop 20 of them lategame when the opponent manages to kill all your scvs. Or option b give zerg the ability to stack the injects all at once in case we forgot to inject a few times. Obviously option b is retarded as are the way mules are used now. Besides it will free up the orbital for scans and dropping supply which in my opinion will help terran out more since they'll have to build half the supply depots they do now.
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Actually Daisy corruptors are one of my essential units vs mech these days. :-) Ever seen what happens to thors when corruption is cast on them and you focus them with roaches? Also they keep those pesky banshees away from your roaches. I made them by mistake one day and I haven't looked back haha.
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11/06/2012 09:46 PMPosted by DobisPR
Ever seen what happens to thors when corruption is cast on them and you focus them with roaches?


Yes, I have found it useless unless you have a certain number of roaches. Generally the more you have the less you get out of corruption until it takes the same amount of volleys either way.

At most I suppose you'll get one less volley off before killing it, which is one less attack from the thor. But I suppose if there are banshees out and your corruptors are sitting there doing nothing anyway then every bit counts. :-)
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11/06/2012 09:46 PMPosted by DobisPR
Actually Daisy corruptors are one of my essential units vs mech these days. :-) Ever seen what happens to thors when corruption is cast on them and you focus them with roaches? Also they keep those pesky banshees away from your roaches. I made them by mistake one day and I haven't looked back haha.


If you already have a spire up, and you've spent all your evo time on armor/melee and not range, and you need a sudden surge of Roaches vs Thors with upgrades--then yes I can make that argument being made to make up for lost evo time by making corruptors.

That doesn't make it good.
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Lol...considering that you are going to get brood eventually anyway and corrupt is INVALUABLE vs heavy mech it is incredibly good. Esp if they pull scvs...think of the corruption as negating the repairing scvs so the thor can't keep hitting your stuff as much as it otherwise would. Plus the banshees do a retarded amount of damage if you don't have something to deal with them. Just engage when he is halfway across the map...corrupt all his thors or as many as you can and start targetting them. When the tanks are almost done sieging you run away and wait till they unsiege. By the time he gets to your base his 7 thor "scary" push will be down to 3 or maybe 4 thors and you will have kept reinforcing with roach ling. I'll put up some replays when I get home.

I think the numbers are when you hit units that have corruption...unupgraded roaches doing 16 damage now do 19 each shot, unupgraded lings do 6, and I get some hydras almost every game so they do 15 damage. So it pretty much negates their armor upgrades....pretty good if you ask me, wouldn't you say lorkac?
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Oh I almost forgot...banes go from doing 20 damage to 25 too...it doesn't seem like a lot until you consider how many units you are going to have attacking these things.
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holy necro bumped batman
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Let me build a scenario to demonstrate a closer to real example. Maths isn't my strong point so if I've made an error in my calculations do let me know.

We have an enemy BC that we want to cast corruption on so it "dies faster". It has 550 hitpoints. We have 5 hydras and a corruptor. Each hydra does 12 damage (for the sake of simplicity we will ignore upgrades). We are of course going to focus fire it.

Note: There are differences in attack speed, but again for the sake of simplicity we are going to assume the corruptor attacks once every 2 hydra attacks (it's actually 2.1 or something). Corruptor does 20 damage to battlecruiser, so we'll add 10 to each volley and 12 for attacks against corruption (again, simplicity).

1. We attack without corruption.
  • Each hydra attack does 12 damage.
  • Our volleys do (12+10)*5 damage (110).
  • -
    End result: The BC goes down in 5 volleys.

    2. We attack with corruption.
    (I'm assuming corruption hits the target before the hydras get a chance to attack, which rarely happens)
  • We cast corruption, our first two attacks will ignore corruptor damage
  • Each hydra attack does 14.4 damage.
  • First two volleys do 14.4*5 damage (72)
  • The rest of our volleys do (14.4+12)*5 damage (132)
  • -
    End result: The BC goes down in 6 volleys.

    So, what we have done with corruption is not only wasted APM by casting it, but it has actually allowed the battlecruiser to survive longer and let our units take more damage. Potentially losing us the engagement.


    Necro for some horrible napkin maths fixes. The corruptor attack doesn't do 10x5 dmg each volley

    5 hydras x 12 damage = 60 damage + 10 from the corruptor attack = one volley

    12x5+10= 70 dmg uncorrupted volley

    14.4x5 = 72 first 2 volley
    14.4x5+12 = 84 rest of the volleys

    using corruption is not an apm loss at all.

    8 volley without corruption 550/70 = 7.8 (so 8 volley)

    7 volley with corruption (550-144)/84 = 4.83 + 2 for the first 2 volley (-144)
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    Transfuse has saved my life so many times. Queens are good and shouldn't be messed with.
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    Newsflash: Our buildings cost less because we have to give up a Drone.

    Hatchery: 300
    Nexus: 400
    Orbital: 550 (400 for CC + 150 to upgrade)
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