StarCraft® II

For those who say the infestor negates micro:

I'm just curious, why are there not similar complaints about other microless situations that other units cause? Forget balance, winrates, etc. I'm referring to the specific arguement that fungal is poorly designed because all you can do against it is set up prior to the engagement. The same arguement could be made against colossus since once you get enough of them, no amount of micro can really save your army if you attack with everything in a big clump, not because of any movement impairing effect, but because everything just evaporates so quickly. The same coukd be said of ghosts against Protoss with emp, toss can't really do any splitting while emps are going off, they either pre split or they lose almost all energy and shields on everything they have. There are plenty of other scenarios where how you position/prepare for an engagment will basically dictate how the battle goes regardless of any micro done during the battle itself.

To reiterate, putting all balance complaints aside, why is fungal singled out as bad game design while every other scenario is completely neglected?
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You can add clumping Banelings versus Tanks in the list as well.

11/13/2012 02:24 PMPosted by Comadiroma
To reiterate, putting all balance complaints aside, why is fungal singled out as bad game design while every other scenario is completely neglected?

Because players like to blame their mistakes on other things.
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You can add clumping Banelings versus Tanks in the list as well.

To reiterate, putting all balance complaints aside, why is fungal singled out as bad game design while every other scenario is completely neglected?

Because players like to blame their mistakes on other things.


Yea banelings against tanks is another perfect example. I know that people who complain about balance will always find something to whine about, which is why I'm specifically aiming the question at those on the side of the fence that say its simply bad game design regardless of whether they feel its balanced or not.
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There are many things in the game that negate micro such as FF, Concussive shells and Fungal, but Fungal is the worst.
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Because fungal is the only ability in the game that is instantly cast, completely freezes units over a large radius, and does damage.

You're kinda grasping at straws here.
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Because fungal is the only ability in the game that is instantly cast, completely freezes units over a large radius, and does damage.

You're kinda grasping at straws here.


Not really, there is no difference in effect between the examples listed and fungal. If you walk into infestors with clumped units you lose them with no chance to correct your mistake. Same goes for banelings against tanks, colossus, etc. Why does it matter that the units take longer to die with fungal?
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11/13/2012 02:24 PMPosted by Comadiroma
The same arguement could be made against colossus since once you get enough of them, no amount of micro can really save your army if you attack with everything in a big clump
That would be the micro, to split your army and not have it in a big clump. That is like saying fungal only negates micro if you get hit by it.
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Because fungal is the only ability in the game that is instantly cast, completely freezes units over a large radius, and does damage.

You're kinda grasping at straws here.


Not really, there is no difference in effect between the examples listed and fungal. If you walk into infestors with clumped units you lose them with no chance to correct your mistake. Same goes for banelings against tanks, colossus, etc. Why does it matter that the units take longer to die with fungal?


Tanks and Colossi don't freeze units in place, and both can only hit ground units.

Fungal freeze any unit in place except for Ultras, but no one cares about that because you can't claim ZvZ is imbalanced, and Protoss doesn't have Dark Archons for Mind Control, and if they did, Ultras have Frenzy, so it wouldn't matter.

If Thors and Archons also had Frenzy and were immune to the snaring effect of Fungal, people wouldn't complain, but then Zerg would complain about early Thor and Archon pushes because Neural parasite and Fungal wouldn't effect them.

Basically, the problem with Fungal is that there are no units for Terran or Protoss that can counter it.

FFs get crushed by massive units, and don't effect flying units. Concussive Shells again, don't effect massive units and can't hit flying units. Tanks and Colossi can't shoot up.

Fungal is the only ability in the game that can stop flying units in their tracks. Yes yes, split them. Except Zerg often get a dozen or more Infestors, so splitting is not effective...

Another solution would be to have Fungal not effect Massive units or not hit air units, but again, then Zerg would complain that either Archons and Colossi are too hard to deal with, or that ZvZ will turn into Muta vs. Muta, depending on what you go with.

But yeah. Basically, the point is that people wouldn't complain about Infestors as much if Protoss and Terran both had at least one unit that didn't get snared by Fungal and couldn't be NP'd...
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Playing vs protoss negates micro
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One fungal has about the same micro requirement as placing 1 forcefield.

1 Fungal > 1 forcefield.
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I'm just curious, why are there not similar complaints about other microless situations that other units cause? Forget balance, winrates, etc. I'm referring to the specific arguement that fungal is poorly designed because all you can do against it is set up prior to the engagement. The same arguement could be made against colossus since once you get enough of them, no amount of micro can really save your army if you attack with everything in a big clump, not because of any movement impairing effect, but because everything just evaporates so quickly. The same coukd be said of ghosts against Protoss with emp, toss can't really do any splitting while emps are going off, they either pre split or they lose almost all energy and shields on everything they have. There are plenty of other scenarios where how you position/prepare for an engagment will basically dictate how the battle goes regardless of any micro done during the battle itself.

To reiterate, putting all balance complaints aside, why is fungal singled out as bad game design while every other scenario is completely neglected?


A bold statement but a terrible argument and comparision. Colosus is not even close to this since colosus does not negate Micro. Negating micro means when the colosus attacks, the zerg units or terran units are frozen. What you said was basically with 400 apm, a bioball will die regardless of how much they micro but they can still micro. Forcefields also trap units but it doesn't negate, micro.Fungal is designed to negate micro. Forcefields cut units off but the units can still move, even burrow, or fly away. Fungals stop flying units, Cloaked,burrow units and no unit can move after it is casted.

That is literally the definition of negating micro, it means you can't micro because you aren't allowed to. Forcefields still allow you to micro even if you catch a ball or roaches because you can burrow underneath or if your a flying unit like vikings, you can fly away. Fungal cancels blink so you can't blink away, you can't burrow away, it reveals burrow, you can't fly away. I mean there not even close to similar.

Terrible comparison.
Edited by Drathjon on 11/13/2012 9:02 PM PST
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Because fungal is the only ability in the game that is instantly cast, completely freezes units over a large radius, and does damage.

You're kinda grasping at straws here.


Oh, I don't know. I think the root effect adds depth to the game. I like the idea of making the unit smaller as a nerf so you could storm or emp infestors when THEY clump (and they almost have to to throw that #$%$ing free hugearmy over shields and cliffs).
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A 2 Radius spell in which you A:) Can't move B:) Can't cast spells C:) Take damage D:) Uncloaks units, for 75 energy.

The consequence of this spell is that Zerg doesn't need many units to support the Infestor army. The other consequence is that the Infestor can be an army, which I am not complaining, realistically it is akin to Ghosts in late game T vs P, as much as Sentries in Z vs P, what you don't see tho is 30 Ravens, 30 Ht's running around the map killing 10,000 minerals worth of army strictly off caster energy.
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your logic doesnt make any sense. emp does not stack, fungal does.

That is similar to saying "well they both do the same thing, but one can be done repeatedly, but whatever its the same thing"

Fungal has much higher damage potential than emp(which technically is a projectile btw).

You can't just cherry pick one portion of whats wrong with fungal, compare it to something different and claim people are just complaining about that aspect incorrectly.
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11/13/2012 02:48 PMPosted by Comadiroma
there is no difference in effect between the examples listed and fungal.


Not sure if you have a very low understanding of the game or you are just very biased. No point arguing with you either way.
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Because fungal is the only ability in the game that is instantly cast, completely freezes units over a large radius, and does damage.

You're kinda grasping at straws here.

Exactly. The others hamper micro but they don't stop it. Fungal Growth completely stops micro.
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How do you people know my language?
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11/13/2012 03:21 PMPosted by sGSyntax
B:) Can't cast spells


This is false. Fungal only stops Blink, Charge, Burrow, and Siege Tank/Viking transformations.
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