For those who say the infestor negates micro:

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Typical Zerg player's awful logic.
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Grab them OP, grab them quickly!

The same arguement could be made against colossus since once you get enough of them, no amount of micro can really save your army if you attack with everything in a big clump, not because of any movement impairing effect, but because everything just evaporates so quickly.


You can still run or split if you get caught out of position against this army because colossus have no ability to impair your movement. You would have had a better point with forcefields actually. However even forcefields still allow you to move your units.

The same coukd be said of ghosts against Protoss with emp, toss can't really do any splitting while emps are going off, they either pre split or they lose almost all energy and shields on everything they have.


They can still attempt to run or move to a better position after they get EMPed. EMP does not hold units in place.

There are plenty of other scenarios where how you position/prepare for an engagment will basically dictate how the battle goes regardless of any micro done during the battle itself.


And? Oftentimes you can still micro during the engagement to either retreat or reposition your army, allowing you to mitigate your losses if caught out of position. You want to know why? Because oftentimes your army can still move. Being able to fully control your units = being able to micro them.

OP or not, fungal is a boring ability that makes battles far less dynamic, because as soon as the first one goes off many times it's just a chain until the units are dead.
Edited by BossBobRoss on 11/13/2012 4:04 PM PST
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Another Infestor Thread...

Lick
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If Thors and Archons also had Frenzy and were immune to the snaring effect of Fungal, people wouldn't complain, but then Zerg would complain about early Thor and Archon pushes because Neural parasite and Fungal wouldn't effect them.

Basically, the problem with Fungal is that there are no units for Terran or Protoss that can counter it.


I can't speak for all zergs but I for one wouldn't care if the only change to fungal was a lack of rooting against archons and thors, I can't see it affecting anything really. Also tanks can outrange and target fire, ghosts can cloak and snipe/emp, colossus have equal range so getting in range to fungal essentially results in "trading" infestors for some of your army, and feedback/storm work against infestors as well, so the last quoted sentence there is actually just false...

11/13/2012 03:11 PMPosted by Drathjon
Also Colossus doesn't negate, micro. What you are stating is that 400 apm won't save if you attack a bioball into a colossus force. That isn't negating micro. Negating micro would be if a colosus attack and all units near the attack were instantly frozen couldn't move. That is negating micro.


You arguement is flawed.

While large amount of units kill stuff, you can't say it negates micro.

You still have full control of all your units, while fungal growth removes it from you.


How about we remove the root but allow all the damage to go through immediately, and put a small 1 second cooldown on it, can you micro against infestors now? Zerg doesn't get anything with large aoe burst damage that can attack from range, so instead of instantly wiping out units, it roots and kills them slower.

your logic doesnt make any sense. emp does not stack, fungal does.

That is similar to saying "well they both do the same thing, but one can be done repeatedly, but whatever its the same thing"

Fungal has much higher damage potential than emp(which technically is a projectile btw).

You can't just cherry pick one portion of whats wrong with fungal, compare it to something different and claim people are just complaining about that aspect incorrectly.


I guess you can technically make a point that emp is a little different, but if you have stimmed bio with the ghosts, you can basically kill a large portion of the army for free without the opponent being able to do anything, but I don't think tanks vs banelings is cherry picking. If banelings are prespread, they negate the splash from the tank, if they're not, all of them die instantly to one tank shot - now replace banelings with marines, and tank shot with fungal... I'm not seeing how its actually any different other than the fact that the marines don't die instantly but rather take a full 8 seconds.

Obviously there are minor differences, because blizzard wants each race to have different units/mechanics/etc. but I guess I just view them as similar to the point where the whole "they negate all micro" arguement seems over the top. Note, this is different from the "they're too good against everything" arguement, if that's your stance, then good for you, but that's a separate claim.
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I'm pretty sure Flash showed how Terrans should approach Infestors in game 2 of the MLG semi-finals.
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The difference between force field and Fungal Growth is that force fields can be microed out of. Fungal, Concussive Shells, and Time Warp (HotS) are all bad for the game because they're something that prevents micro all together.
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11/13/2012 04:58 PMPosted by FinnTheHuman
The difference between force field and Fungal Growth is that force fields can be microed out of. Fungal, Concussive Shells, and Time Warp (HotS) are all bad for the game because they're something that prevents micro all together.


Don't forget vortex.
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11/13/2012 03:04 PMPosted by Derpy
Playing vs protoss negates micro
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11/13/2012 05:01 PMPosted by sTsTtzy
The difference between force field and Fungal Growth is that force fields can be microed out of. Fungal, Concussive Shells, and Time Warp (HotS) are all bad for the game because they're something that prevents micro all together.


Don't forget vortex.


Thank you :)
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11/13/2012 02:24 PMPosted by Comadiroma
To reiterate, putting all balance complaints aside, why is fungal singled out as bad game design while every other scenario is completely neglected?

Because it both does damage and negates micro.

Things like EMP, which you cited, ONLY do damage (be it energy or shields). The Protoss can still retreat from a bad engagement with it, and won't be totally slaughtered by being held in place.

Colossi force Viking Micro, and have no direct way to deal with them other than supporting Stalkers/HT/Archons.

As someone already said: The reason fungal is singled out is because it's too "all of the above": it does reasonably well vs everything in the game; it freezes the target, negating micro and opening it up to numerous other threats; and it does damage.
11/13/2012 05:01 PMPosted by sTsTtzy
The difference between force field and Fungal Growth is that force fields can be microed out of. Fungal, Concussive Shells, and Time Warp (HotS) are all bad for the game because they're something that prevents micro all together.


Don't forget vortex.

Even Vortex, Concussive and Time Warp are not as bad because they don't both hold and do damage.

Micro-preventing abilities can be moderated by forcing some amount of intelligent positioning/casting. There's some strategy to placing concussive shots in small numbers, and even FF, as trashed as it is, forces intelligent positioning and splitting to be effective.

TW and Vortex are essentially point and shoot micro limiter; Fungal is a point and shoot micro limiter which also does damage.
Edited by IndigO on 11/13/2012 5:20 PM PST
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11/13/2012 05:17 PMPosted by IndigO
Even Vortex, Concussive and Time Warp are not as bad because they don't both hold and do damage.


I guess losing everything that got vortexed essentially for free doesn't count as damage.
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11/13/2012 05:21 PMPosted by sTsTtzy
Even Vortex, Concussive and Time Warp are not as bad because they don't both hold and do damage.


I guess losing everything that got vortexed essentially for free doesn't count as damage.


That was patched. Archon Toilets are effective against slow air units only. Also, there are ways to avoid it, such as IT flushing, etc. etc.

The ability itself doesn't actually do damage, a supporting unit does. What you're saying is akin to saying: "Well, I guess losing everything to colossus after getting FF'd into a box doesn't count as damage." in reference to FF. It's not the FF that did the damage, it's the Colossus.
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11/13/2012 05:25 PMPosted by IndigO
That was patched. Archon Toilets are effective against slow air units only. Also, there are ways to avoid it, such as IT flushing, etc. etc.

1) The etc.s shouldn't be there. IT flushing is the only thing you can do. Think about how many options terran or protoss have if they get vortexed. I guess protoss can vortex the other protoss?

11/13/2012 05:25 PMPosted by IndigO
The ability itself doesn't actually do damage, a supporting unit does.

Unless you are fighting marines, fungal doesn't really do all that much damage either. It makes the army a sitting duck for brood lords.

It doesn't matter if a supporting unit does the damage or not, the damage is still done.
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11/13/2012 05:17 PMPosted by IndigO
As someone already said: The reason fungal is singled out is because it's too "all of the above": it does reasonably well vs everything in the game; it freezes the target, negating micro and opening it up to numerous other threats; and it does damage.


I guess this is as good an answer as any, my main point was simply that Zerg doesn't have anything that does large amounts of aoe damage very quickly other than banelings, which are hugely cost inefficient in many scenarios, so instead of being able to kill stuff quickly with lots of splash, we get a spell that kills slowly in an aoe, but disables to compensate. The end result of both of those is that whatever gets targeted dies without the player getting to do much with them micro wise, the player getting fungal'd just has to watch their units die more slowly. At the end of the day, I personally wouldn't mind if the spell was redesigned, but some other changes would have to be introduced to compensate for it.
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11/13/2012 03:50 PMPosted by Robotix
B:) Can't cast spells


This is false. Fungal only stops Blink, Charge, Burrow, and Siege Tank/Viking transformations.


Oh Robotix, what am I going to do with you? Fungal stops Snipe, EMP, Heat Seeker Missle, PDD, Turret, anything Terran casts in fact excepting heal, unload cargo and Stim. I haven't tested 250 mm, but I am going to guess it still does. You should try playing the game once in a while, you would know this stuff.
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11/13/2012 02:58 PMPosted by Entropic
Tanks and Colossi don't freeze units in place, and both can only hit ground units.

They'll both one-shot a clump of Banelings. There's no chance to micro Banelings out once they've been hit by the instant attacks from those two units. Zerg has to pre-split Banelings versus splash or lose them in a more inefficient way than would happen if they blow themselves up.

11/13/2012 08:55 PMPosted by sGSyntax
Oh Robotix, what am I going to do with you? Fungal stops Snipe, EMP, Heat Seeker Missle, PDD, Turret, anything Terran casts in fact excepting heal, unload cargo and Stim. I haven't tested 250 mm, but I am going to guess it still does. You should try playing the game once in a while, you would know this stuff.

Uh, no. The only ability that is restricted by Fungal is Blink, because it is a movement based ability. The rest are completely able to be used. However, they have to be manually cast within their range. If a manual attempt to cast outside their range is made, they cannot use the ability because they cannot move to a location where the target is in range.

This is why, when Ghosts were massed, you saw them dump all their energy out into EMPs or Snipes when Fungaled, to prevent a loss of energy if chained to death. You also see this when Ravens are Fungaled.
Edited by TropicalBob on 11/13/2012 10:18 PM PST
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11/13/2012 10:13 PMPosted by TropicalBob
Tanks and Colossi don't freeze units in place, and both can only hit ground units.

They'll both one-shot a clump of Banelings. There's no chance to micro Banelings out once they've been hit by the instant attacks from those two units. Zerg has to pre-split Banelings versus splash or lose them in a more inefficient way than would happen if they blow themselves up.


There's a difference between taking a volley of damage and being chained to death by Fungal Growth. Cherry picking at Banelings and Zerglings just because they have low HP and die in one hit is beside the point. If I run my MMM ball into a siege line, I have the option of retreating and minimizing my losses. If you run your ling/bane army into a siege line, you have the option of retreating to mitigate losses (Stephano vs. Bomber at Lonestar).

Against Fungal Growth, that option of retreat is removed. If you catch my Vikings clumped, I don't have the option of retreating and minimizing my losses. If you catch my Marines clumped, they will be chained to death. There is no way to mitigate the damage after it's been initiated.
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11/13/2012 10:53 PMPosted by adrrr
Against Fungal Growth, that option of retreat is removed. If you catch my Vikings clumped, I don't have the option of retreating and minimizing my losses. If you catch my Marines clumped, they will be chained to death. There is no way to mitigate the damage after it's been initiated.

Medivacs mitigate the damage. Pre-splitting mitigates the damage. Using long ranged units or anti-energy spells mitigates the damage.

If you don't pre-split Banelings and they all die to one Siege Tank shot, you can't mitigate the damage. It's the same thing, except it takes multiple Fungals to kill Terran and Protoss units, rather than one. Oh yeah, and it's range 13 versus 9.
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Gee, it's a good thing every zerg unit is a squishy as a baneling, and also a good thing that siege tanks are incredibly mobile and can hit air and ground simultaneously, while also guaranteeing a kill on anything they attack.
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11/14/2012 12:31 AMPosted by Ruin
Gee, it's a good thing every zerg unit is a squishy as a baneling, and also a good thing that siege tanks are incredibly mobile and can hit air and ground simultaneously, while also guaranteeing a kill on anything they attack.

Gee, it's a good thing all Terran and Protoss units are as squishy as Marines, and also a good thing that energy is infinite and regenerates instantly, while Fungal is also an instant one-shot kill on everything.

I gave a case that functions incredibly similarly to Terran and Protoss 'woes' that requires pre-splitting. May I also point you to another, more lengthy post I made on the subject: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7006247081?page=2#21
11/13/2012 01:14 PMPosted by TropicalBob


I'm sure that's what both Terrans and Protosses said to each other back when storm and EMP were radius 2. Hell, i'm sure it's what Zergs say to each other in ZvZ right?

Oh wait, that's because everyone knows that fungal is large and easy to land but requires superb micro to mitigate.

Zerg know all too well not to clump units together. It's the heart of using Mutalisks as the starting mid-game Lair unit rather than going straight to the Infestor, and Zerg knows well enough the pains of losing an engagement because our Roach/Hydra army was a bit too clumped up.

Terran and Protoss act like they're the only ones to have to face Fungal, but that's far from the truth. If Zerg can split Mutalisks versus Infestors in ZvZ, get proper concaves and spreads with Roach/Hydra versus the Infestor in ZvZ, and face large clumps of Infested Terrans (Arguably more so in ZvZ than what Terran and Protoss even deal with), I think Terran and Protoss can unrustle their jimmies for a moment.

Also note that Zerg doesn't have EMP, Snipe, Feedback, Tanks, Colossi, Stim, Medivacs, nor Blink in order to reduce Infestor energy, focus Infestors down from a distance, heal through Fungal, nor gain better positioning versus Fungal or the Infestors themselves. It all has to be done solely with unit control.
Edited by TropicalBob on 11/14/2012 2:29 AM PST
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