For those who say the infestor negates micro:

Posts: 12,350
11/14/2012 02:27 AMPosted by TropicalBob
Gee, it's a good thing all Terran and Protoss units are as squishy as Marines, and also a good thing that energy is infinite and regenerates instantly, while Fungal is also an instant one-shot kill on everything.


You really are the King Of Strawmen.
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i wish i could micro my way through a siege tank line
Edited by WillyYork on 11/14/2012 7:10 AM PST
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Because fungal is the only ability in the game that is instantly cast, completely freezes units over a large radius, and does damage.

You're kinda grasping at straws here.


...Interesting because Forcefield is an instant ability, that completely freezes units, lasts 15 seconds (4x longer than Fungal), is T1.5, is UNSTOPPABLE, UNPREVENTABLE, cannot be pre-split or pre-microed against. Cannot micro after, or during. Will literally PUSH your units out of the way to go down. Can shape the terrain on top of all that...

But because it doesn't do damage i guess Fungal is magically worse? Use feedback, storm, and Archon toilet. Stop your whining about our 1 and only "good" ability. When you have multiple great abilities, as well as anti-caster spells and units.
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your logic doesnt make any sense. emp does not stack, fungal does.

That is similar to saying "well they both do the same thing, but one can be done repeatedly, but whatever its the same thing"

Fungal has much higher damage potential than emp(which technically is a projectile btw).

You can't just cherry pick one portion of whats wrong with fungal, compare it to something different and claim people are just complaining about that aspect incorrectly.


Fungal doesn't stack. You can chain your fungals, but to call something "stacking" is to say it compounds the effects when casted at the same time / same place.

Heaving said this, EMP technically "stacks" against any units with more than 100 shield since it's instant cast. This is why EMP is so good against protoss late game.
Edited by Greatbox on 11/14/2012 7:34 AM PST
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11/13/2012 05:03 PMPosted by xOPieTaster
Playing vs protoss negates micro


Implying that ZvP requires little to no effort? ;)
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Posts: 4,800
Uh, no. The only ability that is restricted by Fungal is Blink, because it is a movement based ability. The rest are completely able to be used. However, they have to be manually cast within their range. If a manual attempt to cast outside their range is made, they cannot use the ability because they cannot move to a location where the target is in range.


This is false. I have tested this in game and out of game in unit tester. I need to make a new thread because there really seems to be a complete misunderstanding of what Fungal is or does.

Ha. I stand corrected. It is still wierd, there have been times in games where I am unable to cast while under fungal and it isn't range issues or energy issues. Maybe there is a bug. :D
Edited by sGSyntax on 11/14/2012 11:07 AM PST
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Gee, it's a good thing all Terran and Protoss units are as squishy as Marines, and also a good thing that energy is infinite and regenerates instantly, while Fungal is also an instant one-shot kill on everything.


You really are the King Of Strawmen.

Huh...You know, because this obviously doesn't deserve to be mocked:
11/14/2012 12:31 AMPosted by Ruin
Gee, it's a good thing every zerg unit is a squishy as a baneling, and also a good thing that siege tanks are incredibly mobile and can hit air and ground simultaneously, while also guaranteeing a kill on anything they attack.


11/14/2012 10:49 AMPosted by sGSyntax
Ha. I stand corrected. It is still wierd, there have been times in games where I am unable to cast while under fungal and it isn't range issues or energy issues. Maybe there is a bug. :D

It probably also counts if you're shift-queuing spell commands, but the first is outside the range of even one of the spellcasters, leading to all the following commands being incapable of casting because of the initial command taking priority in the queue but never expiring.
Edited by TropicalBob on 11/14/2012 12:31 PM PST
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11/14/2012 02:27 AMPosted by TropicalBob
Gee, it's a good thing all Terran and Protoss units are as squishy as Marines, and also a good thing that energy is infinite and regenerates instantly, while Fungal is also an instant one-shot kill on everything.


The fact of the matter is, your analogy made absolutely no sense. Zerg typically make a large number of infestors; in any given battle their energy is functionally infinite. In any given battle you are unable to disengage once the infestors have started to attack, because your units cannot move. Siege tanks do not function in this manner, not remotely. You can choose to disengage at any time when fighting siege tanks. Of course you will be punished for your decision; you committed to an attack. But you CAN pull back. Infestors not only do a metric !@#$ton of damage, they also force you to permanently commit to an engagement. I won't even go in to the incredibly synergy with broodlords, which punish you for not engaging in a timely manner.

11/14/2012 07:10 AMPosted by WillyYork
i wish i could micro my way through a siege tank line


Siege tanks don't move, you can go around it.
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11/14/2012 01:07 PMPosted by Ruin
Siege tanks don't move, you can go around it.


Broodlords move slow, you can go around them.

Oh wait, i'm sure infestors will be waiting to fungle you, the zerg player must have full creep spread by than and you just waddle on his creep.

I think the OP had a few valid points, seems that most people can't hear it and just want to complain about fungle some more.

Basically instant damage of 5+ seidge tanks does do worse than fungle since a bad engaugment kills units quicker than it is possible to micro out of, that can't be argued, however tanks aren't as deadly because of sedge time, ect.

Storm on marines is worse than fungle, kills them before they can get out, you can't say you can micro away from storm if it already hits your marine clump, marines dead in 1 second, good luck!.

Basically fungal isn't the only thing that's horrible to micro against, I do feel the slow death adds insult to injury since you have this slight hope you can make it out, where storms just kill so you have no such hope. This is where more frustration comes against fungal.
Edited by FloorWax on 11/14/2012 1:24 PM PST
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11/14/2012 01:07 PMPosted by Ruin
The fact of the matter is, your analogy made absolutely no sense.

It is a situation where the Zerg has to consciously pre-split their units or risk the potential of being incredibly punished for it.

I see you also conveniently looked over the second half of my post.
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The fact of the matter is, your analogy made absolutely no sense.

It is a situation where the Zerg has to consciously pre-split their units or risk the potential of being incredibly punished for it.

I see you also conveniently looked over the second half of my post.


Your argument is that Siege Tanks and Colossus negate micro because they kill Banelings in one shot/volley. The entire premise of your analogy hinges on the assumption that the HP of your unit of choice is less than the amount of damage a Tank volley or Colossus shot can deal. If the unit survives the initial volley or shot, then they are able to be further microed, and thus micro has not been negated.

Easy example to see this in action. Watch any TvT where a player stims his bio into a line of tanks. They'll pre-split as they stim in, and then further split their units as they are under fire to mitigate the splash damage. Same thing when facing Colossus. If these units truly negated micro, micro in the heat of battle would be impossible.

The Infestor on the other hand, truly negates micro, even more-so than force fields, because once Fungal Growth lands, it's beyond the player's to ability to control what happens to that group of units. Similarly, Vortex also operates this way. Both are micro-negating abilities.

In summary, the difference between Tanks/Colossus and Fungal Growth/Vortex is that the latter forces the engagement once it's been initiated, with no option to mitigate further damage or retreat from battle.
Edited by adrrr on 11/14/2012 2:01 PM PST
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11/14/2012 01:57 PMPosted by adrrr
The entire premise of your analogy hinges on the assumption that the HP of your unit of choice is less than the amount of damage a Tank volley or Colossus shot can deal.

Welcome to the life of a Zerg, where the HP of basically any given unit is generally that low.

Obviously this differs depending on the composition and match-up. However, I never made any claims that Marines can't retreat from Tanks, or that you can't retreat units currently snared by Fungal. I simply made the claim that if a Zerg clumps his Banelings into one tight ball and they get hit by a Tank shell, there is no mitigating Baneling losses. They are dead. Hence, Zerg has learned that we have to split our Banelings prior to an engagement.

It's nice to see you also neglected my other premise. Let me report it since you all seem too lazy to go one page back:
11/13/2012 01:14 PMPosted by TropicalBob


I'm sure that's what both Terrans and Protosses said to each other back when storm and EMP were radius 2. Hell, i'm sure it's what Zergs say to each other in ZvZ right?

Oh wait, that's because everyone knows that fungal is large and easy to land but requires superb micro to mitigate.

Zerg know all too well not to clump units together. It's the heart of using Mutalisks as the starting mid-game Lair unit rather than going straight to the Infestor, and Zerg knows well enough the pains of losing an engagement because our Roach/Hydra army was a bit too clumped up.

Terran and Protoss act like they're the only ones to have to face Fungal, but that's far from the truth. If Zerg can split Mutalisks versus Infestors in ZvZ, get proper concaves and spreads with Roach/Hydra versus the Infestor in ZvZ, and face large clumps of Infested Terrans (Arguably more so in ZvZ than what Terran and Protoss even deal with), I think Terran and Protoss can unrustle their jimmies for a moment.

Also note that Zerg doesn't have EMP, Snipe, Feedback, Tanks, Colossi, Stim, Medivacs, nor Blink in order to reduce Infestor energy, focus Infestors down from a distance, heal through Fungal, nor gain better positioning versus Fungal or the Infestors themselves. It all has to be done solely with unit control.
Edited by TropicalBob on 11/14/2012 2:08 PM PST
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The entire premise of your analogy hinges on the assumption that the HP of your unit of choice is less than the amount of damage a Tank volley or Colossus shot can deal.

Welcome to the life of a Zerg, where the HP of basically any given unit is generally that low.


Except that your argument is contingent on the HP of your unit of choice, the number of said units, and the number of Tanks/Colossus. Tanks also deal splash damage, so unless all your units are clumped at the point of impact, the damage dissipates, so the amount of focus firing is also a determining factor in the survivability of your test unit.

The amount of contingencies needed to be taken into consideration to even begin asserting that "Tanks and Colossus negate micro" is so broad that I don't really see how you can draw a parallel between Tanks/Colossus and the Infestor.

Also, I'm not ignoring the other part of your post. I've never had a problem with what you've said about Zerg woes in facing off against the Infestor. It's a common problem all races face. Batches of roaches or hydras get fungalled and the tide instantly turns. A group of infestors get chain fungalled to death and loses the player the game.

These mistakes happen regularly in ZvZs of all levels. Don't pretend like Zergs don't clump their units and get fungalled the hell out of, because it happens all the time. It's just that when it happens, as a Zerg you can't say "Infestors are OP" because making balance claims in a mirror match-up will appear to be borderline retarded.

Regardless, my strife is against your statement that Tanks and Colossus negate micro in the same sense that Infestors do, which I feel is erroneous.
Edited by adrrr on 11/14/2012 2:25 PM PST
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11/14/2012 02:17 PMPosted by adrrr
Except that your argument is contingent on the HP of your unit of choice, the number of said units, and the number of Tanks/Colossus.
11/14/2012 02:17 PMPosted by adrrr
The amount of contingencies needed to be taken into consideration to even begin asserting that "Tanks and Colossus negate micro" is so broad that I don't really see how you can draw a parallel between Tanks/Colossus and the Infestor.

The same contingencies will apply to how many Infestors there are, how much energy they all have, how many units Terran and Protoss have, what kind of units they have, etc.

If it's an army of Thors, Fungal is not going to be as effective as it is against an army of Marines. If there are only 2 Infestors, an army of Marines isn't going to have too many problems. Plenty of Medivacs basically nullify all Fungal damage. 30 Infestors with no energy are no more useful than a rock is useful at being a mouse.

11/14/2012 02:17 PMPosted by adrrr
Regardless, my strife is against your statement that Tanks and Colossus negate micro in the same sense that Infestors do, which I feel is erroneous.

It was a single situation. Banelings clumping against Siege Tanks or Colossi. How is this so hard to understand? This one situation is similar to Marines versus Infestors.
Edited by TropicalBob on 11/14/2012 3:31 PM PST
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11/14/2012 01:24 PMPosted by TropicalBob
I see you also conveniently looked over the second half of my post.


The radius of fungal is far larger than that of a siege tank's damage, and the damage and control it provides over the whole radius is barely even comparable to that of a siege tank. Fungal growth is immensely more devastating.

edit: Also I see you conveniently chose not to respond to my entire post, probably because your argument is baseless and incorrect.
Edited by Ruin on 11/14/2012 5:21 PM PST
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Who gives a !@#$ about whether Race X has to overcome skills with comparable tactics? The question is whether or not Fungal Growth is fun to use and play against, and the answer is "No."
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The same contingencies will apply to how many Infestors there are, how much energy they all have, how many units Terran and Protoss have, what kind of units they have, etc.

If it's an army of Thors, Fungal is not going to be as effective as it is against an army of Marines. If there are only 2 Infestors, an army of Marines isn't going to have too many problems. Plenty of Medivacs basically nullify all Fungal damage. 30 Infestors with no energy are no more useful than a rock is useful at being a mouse.


No, the micro-negating ability of Fungal Growth is independent of any contingencies.

Your analogy is contingent on how many siege tanks are sieged, thus determining how tank shots are fired, thus determining how many banelings will die, and thus determining how many units will not be able to be microed to safety. If there's only one siege tank, maybe a couple of banelings will die, but the rest are able to be microed away to safety.

Fungal Growth will always root a unit/group of units for 4 seconds. The fungalled unit(s) will not be able to move for 4 seconds, which is why we refer to it as negating micro. This function is independent of how many Infestors you have, what kind of unit is being fungalled, and how many units are fungalled.

Damage effectiveness only applies to your erroneous analogy where your so-called "micro-negation" is contingent on how much damage is being applied to a group of units. The micro-negation we're discussing in this thread has nothing to do with damage effectiveness, and shouldn't even be brought up at all.

The only comparable micro-negating ability to Fungal Growth is Vortex, and to a lesser extent Force Field.

11/14/2012 03:29 PMPosted by TropicalBob
It was a single situation. Banelings clumping against Siege Tanks or Colossi. How is this so hard to understand? This one situation is similar to Marines versus Infestors.


An analogy is a comparison based on resemblance. Banelings running into a Siege Tank is different than Marines getting Fungalled by an Infestor. Your analogy is faulty.

How is this so hard to understand?
Edited by adrrr on 11/14/2012 6:30 PM PST
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No, the micro-negating ability of Fungal Growth is independent of any contingencies.

Your analogy is contingent on how many siege tanks are sieged, thus determining how tank shots are fired, thus determining how many banelings will die, and thus determining how many units will not be able to be microed to safety. If there's only one siege tank, maybe a couple of banelings will die, but the rest are able to be microed away to safety.

Fungal Growth will always root a unit/group of units for 4 seconds. The fungalled unit(s) will not be able to move for 4 seconds, which is why we refer to it as negating micro. This function is independent of how many Infestors you have, what kind of unit is being fungalled, and how many units are fungalled.

And everybody's analogies of the Infestor countering everything are contingent on there being more then one Fungal. If there is only one Fungal, you are not forced to engage; your units are not guaranteed death. If only one unit gets Fungaled, you are not forced to engage; the game is not over.

In the end, the complaints of everyone are based on there being lots of Infestors with lots of energy and hardly any unit splitting.
Edited by TropicalBob on 11/15/2012 10:57 AM PST
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