StarCraft® II

For those who say the infestor negates micro:

Because fungal is the only ability in the game that is instantly cast, completely freezes units over a large radius, and does damage.

You're kinda grasping at straws here.


and concussive shell doesn't even need to be cast and hardly costs anything at all 50/50.
Reply Quote
11/15/2012 10:57 AMPosted by TropicalBob
And everybody's analogies of the Infestor countering everything are contingent on there being more then one Fungal. If there is only one Fungal, you are not forced to engage; your units are not guaranteed death. If only one unit gets Fungaled, you are not forced to engage; the game is not over.


The argument in this case (this thread) is regarding micro. Siege tanks, colossi, etc do not NEGATE micro. A siege tank shot that does not kill a unit does not prevent that unit from moving/microing to get within minimum range or move outside maximum range. Its ability to be micro'd is not eliminated.

A unit hit by fungal growth CANNOT MOVE. It is stuck in that position until the fungal wears off. Hence, it negates ANY amount of micro you want to do until it ends. That's a single fungal, not chain-fungals, not contingent upon multiple infestors, etc.

The reason people tend to be more annoyed with fungal than other spells (though there are plenty of complaints about force field, as well) is due to the rooting effect of it. It completely, utterly shuts down your ability to manage those units. They're stuck in that position, unable to be moved or micro'd, and no amount of mashing the keys or clicking the mouse will change that until the fungal ends.

Force fields CAN prevent micro, but only in rare situations where you completely encircle units with them -- this almost never happens. It may not be advantageous micro (to run towards the zealots/colossi that are now shooting at you) but it doesn't NEGATE micro.

Fungal, on the other hand, does.
Reply Quote
Siege tanks don't move, you can go around it.


Broodlords move slow, you can go around them.

Oh wait, i'm sure infestors will be waiting to fungle you, the zerg player must have full creep spread by than and you just waddle on his creep.

I think the OP had a few valid points, seems that most people can't hear it and just want to complain about fungle some more.

Basically instant damage of 5+ seidge tanks does do worse than fungle since a bad engaugment kills units quicker than it is possible to micro out of, that can't be argued, however tanks aren't as deadly because of sedge time, ect.

Storm on marines is worse than fungle, kills them before they can get out, you can't say you can micro away from storm if it already hits your marine clump, marines dead in 1 second, good luck!.

Basically fungal isn't the only thing that's horrible to micro against, I do feel the slow death adds insult to injury since you have this slight hope you can make it out, where storms just kill so you have no such hope. This is where more frustration comes against fungal.


Thank you, I think you and TropicalBob were the only ones that actually saw the point I was making. I know that fungal can be frustrating to face, but basically I was just pointing out that the inability to micro a section of one's army that is fungaled is not inherently poor game design, or at the very least, you have to acknowledge that other situations operate the same way. For the record, I'm excited about getting the viper in HOTS because it looks like ut will be a powerful caster that CAN'T benefit from being massed. I wouldn't mind if the i festor was redesigned to be a unit that allowed us to use lower tier armies to take on other race's deathballs similar to the defiler, because I can agree that seeing entire armies getting fungalled is not ALWAYS entertaining (it is sometimes when the fungal is just oh so money, but I admit to bias in those cases).

Edit: misclicked submit before finished.
Edited by Comadiroma on 11/15/2012 11:51 AM PST
Reply Quote
Dare I suggest that their are abilities that stop or limit Micro for a reason.

Or is that crazy?
Reply Quote
I'm hearing a lot of 'Fungal is OP because rather than instantly killing stuff and making the enemy army weaker immediately, it takes its time letting them continue to damage the Zerg army'

I'm also hearing quite a bit of 'it's not fair that our units die'
Stacking air units shouldn't be punished? Then I guess we should remove the Archon and Thor, because stacked air units hit by a few of those can't be microed either.

But I'm gonna have to agree with Reno's suggestion because

  • "However, Zerg units will not be able to Burrow (or unburrow), Stalkers cannot Blink and neither Warp Prisms nor Siege Tanks or Vikings can switch between modes. "
  • "Patch 1.1.2
    Fungal Growth now prevents Blink. "
  • There is evidence Blizzard did not do it on accident.
    Edited by Fawxkitteh on 11/15/2012 2:37 PM PST
    Reply Quote
    11/13/2012 03:50 PMPosted by Robotix
    B:) Can't cast spells


    This is false. Fungal only stops Blink, Charge, Burrow, and Siege Tank/Viking transformations.

    You do know that it seems quite rude to say "this is false" in such blank terms.
    Reply Quote
    11/15/2012 11:43 AMPosted by Comadiroma
    I know that fungal can be frustrating to face, but basically I was just pointing out that the inability to micro a section of one's army that is fungaled is not inherently poor game design, or at the very least, you have to acknowledge that other situations operate the same way.


    You're making an assertion without any evidence. My 11th grade English teacher would be furious.

    Quite honestly, your argument has been completely slaughtered time and time again. I will repeat why your post is so heavily flawed: Fungal both stops all micro and does damage.
    Colossi, Tanks, EMP, Storm, and Forcefield all do one or the other, and also may be microed against. It's truly as simple as that. "Other situations" do not operate in the same way.

    As for your section on inherently bad game design, that's a matter of opinion, and cannot be asserted as an absolute. In my, and many other people's opinion, Fungal is bad game design because it's the only ability which negates micro and does damage. All of the above noted abilities/units can be retreated from; Fungal cannot.
    You can say that it isn't bad game design if you want, but your opinion means nothing until you back it up with well thought out and relevant evidence. We've already established that your "similar situations" are not strong evidence, due to their stark differences to fungal.
    Reply Quote
    11/15/2012 03:46 PMPosted by AamDamnd


    This is false. Fungal only stops Blink, Charge, Burrow, and Siege Tank/Viking transformations.

    You do know that it seems quite rude to say "this is false" in such blank terms.


    Lol.

    11/13/2012 08:55 PMPosted by sGSyntax


    This is false. Fungal only stops Blink, Charge, Burrow, and Siege Tank/Viking transformations.


    Oh Robotix, what am I going to do with you? Fungal stops Snipe, EMP, Heat Seeker Missle, PDD, Turret, anything Terran casts in fact excepting heal, unload cargo and Stim. I haven't tested 250 mm, but I am going to guess it still does. You should try playing the game once in a while, you would know this stuff.


    11/14/2012 10:49 AMPosted by sGSyntax
    Uh, no. The only ability that is restricted by Fungal is Blink, because it is a movement based ability. The rest are completely able to be used. However, they have to be manually cast within their range. If a manual attempt to cast outside their range is made, they cannot use the ability because they cannot move to a location where the target is in range.


    This is false. I have tested this in game and out of game in unit tester. I need to make a new thread because there really seems to be a complete misunderstanding of what Fungal is or does.

    Ha. I stand corrected. It is still wierd, there have been times in games where I am unable to cast while under fungal and it isn't range issues or energy issues. Maybe there is a bug. :D


    How does it make you feel to know that someone who "doesn't play the game" knows more about that game than you do?
    Reply Quote
    Fungal both stops all micro and does damage.
    Colossi, Tanks, EMP, Storm, and Forcefield all do one or the other, and also may be microed against.

    Collosi, and Tanks do more damage, and do it instantly.
    EMP does the damage instantly, and can completely neutralize vital spell casters.
    Psi-Storm does more damage.
    Forcefield and Psi-storm force micro, which is probably worse than negating it because units that are running can't help with the fight.

    Being caught off guard by any of these can wreck your army, you have to consider them before you engage. Same with Fungal...
    How is forced micro more fair than reduced micro? How can the enemy be spamming a bunch of Infestors, avoid spending that energy, and still prevent you from at least catching up economically?

    All of the above noted abilities/units can be retreated from; Fungal cannot.

    If Fungal is chained, you can not retreat from it, your units get as many shots as they can before dying.
    If Psi-storm is spammed, you are forced to retreat from it while being shot at, your units get minimal shots in if any.
    But what if they run after the first storm.
    Well, an unstimmed Marauder walking through a storm from one edge to the other takes 40-50 damage. That Marauder will take around 30 damage if Storm is throw directly on him.
    It seems stims has little effect when getting through one storm.

    If Psi-storm said "does 40 damage, does 40 more if target units stop moving or shoot within 2 seconds" would people complain about it? That's pretty much what it does.
    Psi-storm (and Siege Tanks, and Collosus) also don't have the problem of basically causing the units you miss to split on their own.
    Reply Quote
    I know that fungal can be frustrating to face, but basically I was just pointing out that the inability to micro a section of one's army that is fungaled is not inherently poor game design, or at the very least, you have to acknowledge that other situations operate the same way.


    You're making an assertion without any evidence. My 11th grade English teacher would be furious.

    Quite honestly, your argument has been completely slaughtered time and time again. I will repeat why your post is so heavily flawed: Fungal both stops all micro and does damage.
    Colossi, Tanks, EMP, Storm, and Forcefield all do one or the other, and also may be microed against. It's truly as simple as that. "Other situations" do not operate in the same way.

    As for your section on inherently bad game design, that's a matter of opinion, and cannot be asserted as an absolute. In my, and many other people's opinion, Fungal is bad game design because it's the only ability which negates micro and does damage. All of the above noted abilities/units can be retreated from; Fungal cannot.
    You can say that it isn't bad game design if you want, but your opinion means nothing until you back it up with well thought out and relevant evidence. We've already established that your "similar situations" are not strong evidence, due to their stark differences to fungal.


    You're completely misunderstanding my point.

    What I'm saying is the following: chain fungals takes a decent amount of energy, which requires that you have a certain critical mass of infestors, usually at least 6-8. Imagine a critical mass of other races gas intensive units like colossus, tanks, etc. For Terran and Toss, those units just plain slaughter units so quickly that you essentially don't get to micro them at all during an engagement because they're simply dead, since the attack animation is instant, and the units just die immediately. Fungal, instead of straight up killing the units instantly, locks them in place and kills them slowly. So what I'm saying is, pretend that as soon as your units get fungaled, they instead got fry'd by 3 colossus, or blasted by a couple of tanks, in other words, treat them as though they're already dead.

    Now, you understandably might argue that infestors can fungal any unit in the entire game, ground or air, cloaked or uncloaked, and that you can spam fungals over larger numbers of units where as tanks and colossus would have to all hit a single pack of units one at a time. And the argument that it is unreasonable for an ability with that kind of firepower to be viable against such a wide array of units is one I do understand since the units I'm making comparisons to (the colossus and tank for example) can only hit ground and have other limitations like going into siege mode for the tank and being able to be hit by AtA attacks for the colossus. At that point though, we're no longer arguing that the root effect necessarily bad, we're discussing what it's units it should be allowed to affect.

    THAT is my point, that people might not particularly like the rooting effect, and perhaps the infestor is poorly designed in other regards, but just because fungal stops movement and does damage doesn't necessarily mean that such an effect is poor game design. I mentioned this in a previous post, but imagine that it just dealt the same damage with each fungal, but it dealt it instantly and could simply be spammed on top of your army, with each infestor having a 1 second cooldown between casts. It wouldn't freeze your army in place, but you still wouldn't be able to micro you're units because they would just die immediately. At least with the DoT + root you might have a chance to try and reposition the units that aren't rooted in an attempt to save the ones that are.
    Edited by Comadiroma on 11/15/2012 9:38 PM PST
    Reply Quote
    ...
    [Disclaimer: not arguing for or against neither FG or PS]
    Fungal Growth with 9 range does 30 dmg (40 Dmg vs Mech) over 4s.
    Psi Storm with 9 range does 80 dmg over 4s.

    This means if either spell is cast on the center of 30 marines.
    - on average the marines take 30 dmg from fungal growth when not (able to be) microe'd
    - on average the marines take 33 dmg from psi storm when (instantly) micro'd out of the AOE

    The distinction between the spells is only how/where the spells are cast and the opponents reaction.
    If either spell are used most effectively nearly the same damage is done and neither can be avoided.

    Psi Storm usually forces away the opponents army (including the units that were not hit)
    Fungal Growth still gives the opponent the option to press forward with the units not currently under the Fungal Growth affect.

    Fungal roots the units in its radius leaving the rest of the army to be microed; psionic storm forces a micro of your entire army.
    You don't get a choice in micro in either situation.
    Fungal takes your ability to move units where you want to.
    Psi forces you to move units, guess where, where you don't want to.

    The marines are not attacking when they are moving out of the AOE of Psi Storm
    The marines are attacking when in the AOE of Fungal Growth

    Both spells have the potential of chain casting (4s per fungal vs. 2s per HT per PsiStorm)

    ---
    Psi Storm & Fungal Growth, regardless of how similar, are different spells. <- that's a period.
    ---
    Avg dmg of Psi Storm against 30 marines...
    9-12 marines take 40 dmg
    10-13 marines take 30 dmg
    5-9 marines take 20 dmg

    --- --- ---

    My example was marines, and in regards to numbers I was just trying to show the similarities between players ability to "micro" versus storm and the inability to do so versus fungal. Not much of a difference if you react immediately, and more severe if you dont. My arguments arnt invalidated.

    You will still get 40 dmg off over 2 seconds with psi storm on some of the mechanical units with ideal cast. But yes, I haven't tested it but I assume against mech (dependent on movspd) fungal would do slightly more dmg than psi storm. But we are talking about damage in the one digits differentiation. (At about 2.25-2.75 movspd)

    The thing is PsiStorm does similar damage, with the potential for much more, and basically prevents damage done against the caster (unless the opponent doesnt back off and suicides into storm); While Fungal does damage and prevents the opponent from backing off while the caster is still taking damage.
    Reply Quote
    This thread is pointless. It's basically zergs trying to compare fungal to things that aren't even close to fungal. Forcefield is literally the only thing remotely close to fungal and it's completely different. All people continue to say is "What if you spam forcefields? Then you can't micro!" But even if you land 10 perfect forcefields on a roach ball somehow , they can still micro believe it or not with abilities.

    Spamming forcefields doesn't matter if they have ultras,Air,or can burrow. The point is the spells aren't comparable because they do completely different things. And one doesn't do damage. One roots everything, Air,ground,cloaked,burrowed,and massive. The other only is good with ground and can be dodged by burrowing. It doesn't matter if you only have 2 units that can do that because guess what? Those 2 units are the most used(Roaches and infestors) in all of the zerg matchups.

    Also Forcefield doesn't stop spells, fungal literally breaks blink and stops most spells from being casted.I don't know how the hell your comparing these spells just literally label them out if you want to tell the difference.

    Fungal
    - 1 Fungal
    -Snares Air Units
    -Snares massive units
    -Snares and reveals Cloaked Units
    -Snares burrowed units
    -Does 40/30 Damage
    -Stop's micro such as not allowed to move and disables spells like blink

    Forcefields -
    - Creates a Wall to wall or funnel units
    - Can be broken by massive
    - Does not Affect Air
    - Does not Affect Cloaked
    - Does not Affect burrowed and can be dodged with burrowed units
    - Units in forcefields can still be moved and can burrow away(With tunneling claws)
    - Does not disable spells such as blink or fungal
    - Does no damage

    Stop with this non-sense. I don't even know where you got colossus and other units from? Those never stop micro, ever. They can't If you meant to say they don't require much micro. I agree, many units are A-move but negate micro? No that's ridiculous.
    Reply Quote
    It's basically zergs trying to compare fungal to things that aren't even close to fungal.

    I'm sorry, but how can you not see it?
    I don't even know where you got colossus and other units from? Those never stop micro, ever.

    Seriously, how can you not get the comparison?
    Reply Quote
    11/16/2012 01:04 PMPosted by Fawxkitteh
    It's basically zergs trying to compare fungal to things that aren't even close to fungal.

    I'm sorry, but how can you not see it?
    I don't even know where you got colossus and other units from? Those never stop micro, ever.

    Seriously, how can you not get the comparison?


    Colossi, tanks, storm, etc do not "negate micro". They kill units, but by that logic every unit in the game negates micro by killing them.

    Fungal, by its nature, freezes units in place. This prevents any micro of those units at all until it wears off. No other ability in the game can do that with a single use. The fact that you try to compare it to other things is akin to comparing apples to steam shovels.
    Reply Quote
    QQ more
    Reply Quote


    You're making an assertion without any evidence. My 11th grade English teacher would be furious.

    Quite honestly, your argument has been completely slaughtered time and time again. I will repeat why your post is so heavily flawed: Fungal both stops all micro and does damage.
    Colossi, Tanks, EMP, Storm, and Forcefield all do one or the other, and also may be microed against. It's truly as simple as that. "Other situations" do not operate in the same way.

    As for your section on inherently bad game design, that's a matter of opinion, and cannot be asserted as an absolute. In my, and many other people's opinion, Fungal is bad game design because it's the only ability which negates micro and does damage. All of the above noted abilities/units can be retreated from; Fungal cannot.
    You can say that it isn't bad game design if you want, but your opinion means nothing until you back it up with well thought out and relevant evidence. We've already established that your "similar situations" are not strong evidence, due to their stark differences to fungal.


    You're completely misunderstanding my point.

    What I'm saying is the following: chain fungals takes a decent amount of energy, which requires that you have a certain critical mass of infestors, usually at least 6-8. Imagine a critical mass of other races gas intensive units like colossus, tanks, etc. For Terran and Toss, those units just plain slaughter units so quickly that you essentially don't get to micro them at all during an engagement because they're simply dead, since the attack animation is instant, and the units just die immediately. Fungal, instead of straight up killing the units instantly, locks them in place and kills them slowly. So what I'm saying is, pretend that as soon as your units get fungaled, they instead got fry'd by 3 colossus, or blasted by a couple of tanks, in other words, treat them as though they're already dead.


    A critical mass of tanks equal to 6-8 infestors is about 7-9. A critical mass of Collossi equal to that count is 4-6 Colossi. Nobody is saying that charging headlong into that kind of army will be better than charging headlong into 6-8 infestors. What they are saying is if you are caught unawares or out of position by that army you can retreat and/or reposition and only take a few shots if you respond quickly enough. I have played and watched countless games where this exact thing happens: A terran bioball or a zerg roach ball walks up to an army of tanks or is surprised by colossi, takes a few hits, then runs away and either repositions or simply retreats.

    With infestors it is completely different since they root that army in place, removing any option of retreat or repositioning, basically forcing that army to take the full brunt of their damage. It removes the advantage the more mobile army has against the slow splash damage units. That is what everyone is arguing and that is what you fail to realize.

    Now, you understandably might argue that infestors can fungal any unit in the entire game, ground or air, cloaked or uncloaked, and that you can spam fungals over larger numbers of units where as tanks and colossus would have to all hit a single pack of units one at a time. And the argument that it is unreasonable for an ability with that kind of firepower to be viable against such a wide array of units is one I do understand since the units I'm making comparisons to (the colossus and tank for example) can only hit ground and have other limitations like going into siege mode for the tank and being able to be hit by AtA attacks for the colossus. At that point though, we're no longer arguing that the root effect necessarily bad, we're discussing what it's units it should be allowed to affect.

    THAT is my point, that people might not particularly like the rooting effect, and perhaps the infestor is poorly designed in other regards, but just because fungal stops movement and does damage doesn't necessarily mean that such an effect is poor game design.


    This is opinion. Since we're talking game design let's look at the predecessor to this game. It also had movement negating spells such as stasis field and maelstrom which would freeze your units in place. However these spells couldn't be chained on top of each other and they dealt friendly fire on top of that. Fungal is subject to neither constraint.

    So, for me, fungal rooting is fine. Fungal dealing damage is fine too. Fungal chaining is not fine*. It allows you to completely negate movement for much longer than it should while simultaneously dealing damage during the whole period in which the units are stuck in the fungal's effect, which in many cases essentially dooms the units to death.

    *Fungal having no friendly fire is also bad, but if it actually had friendly fire it would be completely useless anyways, so the lesser of 2 evils is better.

    I mentioned this in a previous post, but imagine that it just dealt the same damage with each fungal, but it dealt it instantly and could simply be spammed on top of your army, with each infestor having a 1 second cooldown between casts. It wouldn't freeze your army in place, but you still wouldn't be able to micro you're units because they would just die immediately. At least with the DoT + root you might have a chance to try and reposition the units that aren't rooted in an attempt to save the ones that are.


    Your hypothetical instant damage fungal comparison makes zero sense. Forget the fact that neither tanks nor colossi have an AoE attack nearly as large as the infestor's. Forget the fact that neither of their cooldowns is as short as 1 second. Forget the fact that a tank's splash drops off as you go to the outer part of it's radius. In order to get hit by the full brunt of a tank or colossi army you have to essentially a-move your balled up units into them without paying attention. I.e. not micro them at all. What will actually happen when you encounter such an army, to repeat what I said earlier, is the front of your army will take some shots from them and retreat to a better position.

    Now with an actual comparison to fungal:

    When a one or two Colossi get a swipe at my marines they aren't completely hosed because they get stuck and the colossi can just sit there and roast them. When one or two tank shots go off on my roaches they aren't completely screwed because they have to sit there and take volley after volley. When one fungal goes off on my marines they have to sit there and continue to take fungals because the spell removes any option to retreat or reposition and it can be chained. It removes the ability to try and correct mistakes and mispositioned units through micro. That is what's wrong with fungal.
    Edited by BossBobRoss on 11/16/2012 3:37 PM PST
    Reply Quote
    Colossi, tanks, storm, etc do not "negate micro". They kill units, but by that logic every unit in the game negates micro by killing them.

    The difference being extreme range, aoe, and relatively high damage output.

    When a one or two Colossi get a swipe at my marines they aren't completely hosed because they get stuck and the colossi can just sit there and roast them. When one or two tank shots go off on my roaches they aren't completely screwed because they have to sit there and take volley after volley. When one fungal goes off on my marines they have to sit there and continue to take fungals because the spell removes any option to retreat or reposition and it can be chained.

    How about when 4-5 Collosi get a swipe at your Marines?
    When 6-7 Tank shots go off on your Roaches?
    3-4 Thors/Archons hit your Mutalisks?
    Fungal can be chained, but unlike these other splash weapons, it does not stack, and costs energy.

    Zerg doesn't want to engage and retreat. Our units do not heal as effectively as Protoss shields, or Marines. So Zerg needs a way to force engagements to happen, while Terran and Protoss are happy forcing them to break.
    Edited by Fawxkitteh on 11/16/2012 11:24 PM PST
    Reply Quote
    11/13/2012 02:58 PMPosted by Entropic
    Tanks and Colossi don't freeze units in place


    You're completely missing the point he's trying to say. Even though they don't freeze units in place, they might as well. Because one wave of sweeps from say, 4 or 5 Colossi, basically melts everything instantly.
    Reply Quote
    Just let this terrible thread die already.
    Reply Quote

    Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

    Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

    Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

    Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

    Forums Code of Conduct

    Report Post # written by

    Reason
    Explain (256 characters max)
    Submit Cancel

    Reported!

    [Close]