StarCraft® II

For those who say the infestor negates micro:

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Colossi, tanks, storm, etc do not "negate micro". They kill units, but by that logic every unit in the game negates micro by killing them.

Fungal, by its nature, freezes units in place. This prevents any micro of those units at all until it wears off. No other ability in the game can do that with a single use. The fact that you try to compare it to other things is akin to comparing apples to steam shovels.


actually.
fungal kills units. When units get trapped by fungal they are dead. It is a long death animation. but they can still do damage while dying. and there is a chance of escaping and not dying (if the infestors are killed or chased out of range for example). You feel helpless, but are not.

If you walk a clump of units into 6 infestors, you have a 24 second death animation.
If you walk a clump of units into 4 colossus, you die immediately.

the units are GONE. there is nothing to re-position. You have to do all that before the engagement. just like against fungal. just like against vortex.
Edited by Oboeman on 11/17/2012 12:11 AM PST
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Posts: 2,282
Colossi, tanks, storm, etc do not "negate micro". They kill units, but by that logic every unit in the game negates micro by killing them.

Fungal, by its nature, freezes units in place. This prevents any micro of those units at all until it wears off. No other ability in the game can do that with a single use. The fact that you try to compare it to other things is akin to comparing apples to steam shovels.


actually.
fungal kills units. When units get trapped by fungal they are dead. It is a long death animation. but they can still do damage while dying. and there is a chance of escaping and not dying (if the infestors are killed or chased out of range for example). You feel helpless, but are not.

If you walk a clump of units into 6 infestors, you have a 24 second death animation.
If you walk a clump of units into 4 colossus, you die immediately.

the units are GONE. there is nothing to re-position. You have to do all that before the engagement. just like against fungal. just like against vortex.


It's honestly just baffling to me how many people seem to either be purposefully misunderstanding what the term "micro" is, or are just determined to simply not get it.

Okay, let's give you a simple example:

You walk 3 zealots across the map. Suddenly! Fungal! Now, exactly what can you do with those units for the next 4 seconds? If you answered "nothing", you win a prize. That's called "negating micro", which most people deem as "moving/repositioning units".

Now, second example:

You're walking those same 3 zealots across the map. Suddenly! Siege tank! A shell lands on the zealots, damaging them! Egads! Now what can you do with those units? If you answered "Anything you want", you win another prize. There is nothing that prevents the zealots from moving. They can advance, split up, retreat, etc.

Fungal negates micro because it locks units into place. They can't move. They can't be micro'd.

Get it now? How can you be in masters and be arguing this?

I'm not arguing that fungal is "OP" or "UP" or any sort of powered. I'm simply pointing out that it does, in fact, negate micro. If you can't grasp that, I don't know what to tell you.
Edited by Athena on 11/17/2012 12:46 AM PST
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Posts: 6,382
This thread is still alive?

Its like the "world is actually flat" fiasco all over again.
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Posts: 10,802
^
Actually, it's probably more like a "just because the world is roughly spherical, doesn't mean we can't use a level to check relative horizontalness" thread

It's honestly just baffling to me how many people seem to either be purposefully misunderstanding what the term "micro" is, or are just determined to simply not get it.

No one is saying Fungal Growth doesn't negate micro...
We're saying it is dumb that people complain it negates micro, when it really isn't that far off from complaining you can't micro your units after being hit by Collosi/Tanks to reduce the damage you already took.
At least with Infestors you can micro units not hit to prevent further damage. Can you micro units not hit by Tanks/Collosi to reduce the damage your units already took? No. Fungal's low dps, and inability to stack is made up for by its rooting.
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11/17/2012 02:07 AMPosted by Fawxkitteh
No one is saying Fungal Growth doesn't negate micro...


Actually, if you look back through the thread, several people ARE saying exactly that.
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^ Really? Who? What did they say?
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11/17/2012 02:41 AMPosted by Fawxkitteh
^ Really? Who? What did they say?


Eh, I just reread the thread, and nobody stated it specifically. My mistake.

It's the unending torrent of "it's just like siege tanks/colossi though!" (units that don't prevent micro) that is probably what was making me think otherwise. Units that force micro to prevent damage != being locked down and unable to micro to avoid further damage.

You may as well say that marines "negate micro" because they can just stim and kill units. Or banelings. Or broodlords. Or or or.

The simple fact is, no other ability in the game completely shuts down micro the way fungal does. And that's why people complain about it so much, despite the fact that psionic storm (for instance) does over twice the damage -- at least if you get hit by storm you can micro out of it and reduce the damage. Having your ability to move your units taken away is exceptionally frustrating for some people.
Edited by Athena on 11/17/2012 3:05 AM PST
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Posts: 9,250
Collosus ARE a bad unit, Forcefields DO negate Micro too much, EMP could use some revision if Collosus got a nerf.

But none of these issues are as bad as Infestors are right now. The other units need some revision sure but the Infestor is definitely first in line.

Do people complain about Collosus, Forcefields, and EMP? Yes. But they are not as big of a problem as Fungal Growth currently is.
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11/13/2012 03:50 PMPosted by Robotix
This is false. Fungal only stops Blink, Charge, Burrow, and Siege Tank/Viking transformations.


No, you're wrong. You can't cast Raven Seeker missile either :P

Edit: This thread is retarded.

If I get hit by a fungal growth, I cannot move my units. If I get hit by a siege tank line, I can move out of range of the siege tank line. It's really not that complicated.

The units will not die instantaneously, that is a retarded thing to claim. If a few units die, you can immediately retreat and be safe. If you did the same thing against fungal growth though, you'd get hit and be unable to retreat. It's not a complicated concept guys.

And also, the only units that would die to tanks in one shot also die to fungal growth in one shot, so I don't know what you're claiming with the, "If I run banelings into a line of tanks..." bs. They won't get one shot killed by the tanks, if you split them up you won't have that issue, and if you take one shot, no big deal, you can then split them up after even if they are weakened.

Tanks do not deny micro, colossi don't deny micro, and other AoE doesn't deny micro. They do damage which means you might be dead, but if you have units that OUT RANGE the colossi/tanks (or that can't be affected by them) guess what? You can MICRO them to kill the colossi or tanks! That's why they were put into the game!

I cannot believe that there are so many masters agreeing with the point of this thread. It's really bewildering...
Edited by MtlGuitarist on 11/17/2012 3:44 AM PST
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Posts: 1,064
This thread is, indeed, retarded....Posting in a retarded thread.

First off, this comparison is ridiculous. Yeah, some may die to a splash of collosi/ST and then what? You either stay and fight, or u retreat. Oh, you took casualties? Everyone else has to scout/scan ahead; what makes you so special? So they hit a lot of units? Hmm, well if against zerg you had been hit with FG once per infestor, then i guess a lot of your army would be hit a lot too...oh, but you dont get to back off now. Sure the marines and the lings got splattered, but the marauders/thors/roaches/hydras/immo etc are still alive, right?...oh wait u just ran into the infestor; you dont get to micro.

So whats that you say? You shouldnt have engaged if you saw that many infestors?...I agree, and this applies to everyone, but the longer the non zerg waits, the closer defeat comes.

Once infestors reach their "critical mass"(not 6-8 lol), their opponent gets another enemy; Time.
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No one has quoted my post yet. Waiting, come at me
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You may as well say that marines "negate micro" because they can just stim and kill units.

If you have a Stalker/Zealot army, you don't have blink or sentries, and you get too close to an enemy that has a larger army, and stims... Once they stim, your army is dead, you can't do anything about it. You can choose what to focus fire maybe, but that is it.
So you build stuff that takes stim into account, things that are good at either killing Marines and Marauders, or keep them away. So do the same with Infestors.

Yeah, some may die to a splash of collosi/ST and then what? You either stay and fight, or u retreat. Oh, you took casualties?

Same deal if a few of your units are hit by Fungal. You're only forced to stay if you get your whole army hit. But as you said, that's only your fault if you didn't scout ahead.
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Posts: 664
Oh my goodness. I will reiterate. Tanks and Colossus only "negate" micro under specific circumstances, against specific units, positioned in a specific way. It is extremely asinine to even think it functions remotely similar to Fungal Growth.

Fungal Growth by its very nature denies micro. I quote Blizzard on Fungal Growth. "Immobilizes target units and causes 30 (40 vs. Armored) damage over 4 seconds." Regardless of how many Infestors you have, how many units you're fungalling or what type of units you're fungalling, by its very nature Fungal Growth negates micro. The number of infestors only determine the duration for which you can negate micro.

Two things cannot be comparable if one requires you to make countless assumptions on both sides of the equation while the other is an immovable proof that will always hold true regardless of context and situation.
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Posts: 10,802
Two things cannot be comparable if one requires you to make countless assumptions on both sides of the equation while the other is an immovable proof that will always hold true regardless of context and situation.

If I say the way birds flock reminds me of how fish school, I am comparing one aspect of their behavior.
If you take a single bird or fish it becomes a different story.

I'm pretty sure you can compare pretty much any two things. Buildings and plants for another example.

So why not compare the Infestor to the Tank? They both do a pretty good job of keeping the enemy from blindly charging into an area, due to having long range aoe.
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Posts: 2,282
I'm pretty sure you can compare pretty much any two things. Buildings and plants for another example.

So why not compare the Infestor to the Tank? They both do a pretty good job of keeping the enemy from blindly charging into an area, due to having log range aoe.


Okay, let's follow this train of thought...

Marines, marauders, reapers, ghosts, banshees, vikings, battlecruisers, stalkers, sentries, immortals, void rays, phoenix, hydras, roaches, queens, and corruptors can all be equally compared, because they all deal ranged damage to a single target!

Yay, logic!
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Posts: 10,802
Okay, let's follow this train of thought...

My point is that they are comparable enough for the comparison to be worthwhile.
And that simply stating that they are different cannot be the only reason for disqualifying the discussion.
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*click portrait*
*see that you're a zerg*
*completely ignore your opinion*
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11/18/2012 09:18 PMPosted by Fawxkitteh
Okay, let's follow this train of thought...

My point is that they are comparable enough for the comparison to be worthwhile.
And that simply stating that they are different cannot be the only reason for disqualifying the discussion.


Except that they're not.

So let's use a bit "closer" argument: Are battlecruisers and mutalisks similar enough to compare? They're both fliers, both attack air and ground.

Therefore, any argument talking about mutas can be argued from the standpoint of BCs as well. And vice versa.

And yes, this was a facetious question. They're only alike in VERY vague terms. Just like infestors and siege tanks.
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Posts: 2,354
I'm just curious, why are there not similar complaints about other microless situations that other units cause? Forget balance, winrates, etc. I'm referring to the specific arguement that fungal is poorly designed because all you can do against it is set up prior to the engagement. The same arguement could be made against colossus since once you get enough of them, no amount of micro can really save your army if you attack with everything in a big clump, not because of any movement impairing effect, but because everything just evaporates so quickly. The same coukd be said of ghosts against Protoss with emp, toss can't really do any splitting while emps are going off, they either pre split or they lose almost all energy and shields on everything they have. There are plenty of other scenarios where how you position/prepare for an engagment will basically dictate how the battle goes regardless of any micro done during the battle itself.


Setting up before is one thing. As in your example, you have to set up properly to engage, right? So what is the difference, well it's simple:

You can leave. You can kite. You can try to get into a better position. You can blink. You can siege. You can burrow. You can do almost anything else once you get in there.

infestors negate everything. You can't run away if you get into one bad engagement. If they blind-side you, you're a dead man. They're basically sentries with cloaking whose FF's do added damage and prevent all abilities as well as demolish air units. Not to mention they basically start with a slightly different version of Halluc (which sentries should start with! good job on that blizz) than can do damage.

Sure, against huge numbers of other casters, pre-splitting is highly advised, no one is saying it isn't. however, getting carpeted in EMPs doesn't mean you have zero chance of escape like it does with infestors. Hell, I'd figure infestors are much scarier in death-balls than ghosts will ever be. The only real way to deal with broodlords is to blink or archon toilet. Fungal stops both, not to mention infestors also counter the mothership.

The only ability in the game that has the same level of conditions on it is vortex. Vortex can only come out of a t4 unit that costs 400/400 and is slow as molasses and costs 100 energy. Fungal comes off a t2 unit that's mobile, cloaks, and has 2 other useful spells and costs 75 energy.

11/18/2012 03:42 PMPosted by Fawxkitteh
So why not compare the Infestor to the Tank? They both do a pretty good job of keeping the enemy from blindly charging into an area, due to having long range aoe.


I would love if 4 tanks could realistically kill entire armies if my opponents made small mistakes. That would be awesome. Sadly, that doesn't happen. Think about the last time you ran mutas into thors and the last time you ran mutas into infestors. Which one did more damage? I'm willing to bet the infestors did.

When was the last time you had a marine army run into a siege line? How many marines did you lose? I've run that a bunch of times, you run into a siege line and you can back out losing about 10 marines tops. You dart into an infestor line, you lose every marine, all your medivacs, and possibly all your tanks since you now no longer have support for your tanks.
Edited by Nacht on 11/18/2012 9:42 PM PST
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