StarCraft® II

The Immortal Sentry All In

Here's a thread with replays from masters Z:

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6758625989?page=2#25

Rofl. The Protoss moved out at 10:50, and arrived cross-map at 11:30. Nasreth could have done a Roach max build to crush this with impunity, and that's the exact thing this build was created to counter.

Let's also note that the Protoss lets his Zealots and Sentries die to Hydras behind Force Fields while his Stalkers and Immortals derp around far behind the lines.

11/01/2012 07:00 PMPosted by Defenestratr
Since it is NOT common at the top-tier levels, I would like to know if this is an oversight by the pros or if they have a good reason, and what that reason is. Your theorycrafting hasn't really provided me any insight on this point.

I explained exactly why. It's the entire reason the Hydra has been abandoned by the entire Zerg player-base and meta-game. Dead-end tech, no strength in counterattacks.
Edited by TropicalBob on 11/1/2012 7:23 PM PDT
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11/01/2012 07:00 PMPosted by Defenestratr
You can go ahead and argue "his build sucks" or w/e, honestly the immo/sentry wasn't pulled off that well


I'm gonna go ahead and argue this. His first replay titled "immortal sentry all in" has the protoss moving out at 10:48 with 3 immortals and 6 sentries. It's one thing to say "these timings are a little bit off. I could shave off 15-20 seconds here or there." It's a completely different thing to say "these timings are a little bit off. my push is 2 minutes late."
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11/01/2012 07:18 PMPosted by Pause
Its the only way Protoss can win against Zerg. Plain and simple. Once Zerg gets to late game, Protoss and Terran might as well just leave.


Protoss does fine in the late-game. Terran's late-game suffers against both protoss and zerg, but not to the extent that you'd think from the amount of QQ on these forums.

The biggest factor in the late game, in my opinion, is what happened in the mid-game - if one race tries an all-in, and it fails, they're going to have a harder time in the late-game regardless of who is playing who.
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TLO says all you need to do is build 15 spines at the top of your ramp and only counter attack. I personally haven't seen him lose to it on his stream yet.
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11/01/2012 07:27 PMPosted by Sputnik
TLO says all you need to do is build 15 spines at the top of your ramp and only counter attack. I personally haven't seen him lose to it on his stream yet.


He lost a TON of games to it vs ROOTMinigun.
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Great job refuting the replay, guys. Can you provide one of your own now? Thanks.
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concerning hydralisks, here's my post on the issue from page 11.



The immortal sentry push does not have colossus. Zerg gets lair before 9-11 minutes, and if they don't, something is wrong.


Whenever you make units as a zerg, they aren't drones. That's okay, but you want for there to be a way to use them so they aren't a 100% waste of money.

Speed roaches and lings are active units which can be used to apply counter pressure to protoss to delay his 3rd base or force trades. Force him to play honestly, basically. But if he does play honestly, you still have the mobility to back up and keep the units alive, and threaten counter attacks etc. It hurt your economy to make those units, but you can earn it back by using them to slow down your opponent a bit.

hydras are just sacks of !@#$ which don't do anything. They don't force anything out of the protoss because they are slow and protoss wants colossus anyway. you can't trade because you can't run away and you can't set up flanks or counterattack.

that's the short answer.

but I suppose it is better than being dead.


going hydra kills all momentum in zvp.

i think it would be great to play lots of practice games to show the goods and bads of different methods. maybe i'll have to practice the protoss side of it
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Here's a much better example of what I was talking about:

http://drop.sc/270235

This is vs high masters. Since he's high masters, I'm pretty sure he's a better player than me. 9:00 moveout, reactionary hydras, no range. If he hadn't pushed out, I wouldn'tve built any hydras. Still had time for +1/+1, would have gotten infestation pit if not for the moveout. The game is clearly over with an amove after I kill the last of his army.

Oh, and after the game he said himself that hydras are pretty good vs this push.
Edited by Defenestratr on 11/1/2012 8:40 PM PDT
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what if he moves out to the watchtower while taking a 3rd. are you forced to make the hydras?

is there any point where he could have turned around and gotten out with his entire army surviving after seeing the hydralisks (i'll give you a hint he has forcefields)
Edited by Oboeman on 11/1/2012 8:45 PM PDT
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what if he moves out to the watchtower while taking a 3rd. are you forced to make the hydras?

is there any point where he could have turned around and gotten out with his entire army surviving after seeing the hydralisks (i'll give you a hint he has forcefields)


The game changes at this point; fakeouts require a whole different set of responses, even if you go roach/ling, and honestly I don't think anyone has really explored the "what if he pulls back" situation with any depth when it comes to hydras. I can think of a plethora of responses to this, but it would just be theorycrafting; still I'll just say if you're flanking with lings, or even counterattacking with them, it's not so easy for him to take a 3rd, not to mention hydra/ling is really good vs immo/sentry even offensively. You would want range if you were being offensive, with constant reinforce with lings and maybe get speed for roaches.

Bottom line is that I don't really see how it's much different from overbuilding roach/ling as a response. Still, I think it'd be good to constrain the discussion to "what if he actually goes allin" since the original point is about how to HOLD the allin, not what to do if he pulls back or fakes you out.
Edited by Defenestratr on 11/1/2012 8:55 PM PDT
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The difference is that overbuilding roach/ling has greater offensive potential, and may be able to punish him on his retreat (especially if he has to pass through an open space on the way home), or delay his 3rd base for longer, or catch him out of position while he's defending his 3rd, all while still investing less in dead-end tech.

This is why I've acknowledged that hydras appear to be a suitable solution for "not dying" but I don't consider them much of a solution for winning.

The only thing even remotely all in about this build is the sentries. if he loses the sentries he is dead, but if he turns around with the sentries alive, he is still very much in the game. He cuts probes a bit (44-50), but the zerg has to cut drones as well (55-60). He stops teching, but it's not like the zerg is mining 6 geysers and starting his hive in the face of this either. tech for both players would resume afterwards. He has a robo. He has 1/1. He didn't cut at 30 probes and bank up 200 chronoboost for his gateways. He is mining 4 geysers for continuing tech. of course he can turn around and continue the game.
Edited by Oboeman on 11/1/2012 9:09 PM PDT
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11/01/2012 09:08 PMPosted by Oboeman
This is why I've acknowledged that hydras appear to be a suitable solution for "not dying" but I don't consider them much of a solution for winning.


At least we agree on this then? =P

I still don't buy the offensive potential thing. You have a ton of speedlings, you can delay with those while hydras catch up (since they're definitely slower than speedroaches/speedlings). Just bring your lings around the back while attacking with hydras from the front.

Also as soon as he retreats, you can completely stop hydra production and tech switch, i.e. not invest in your "dead-end tech." In that game I have 5 gas geysers; I can transition pretty easily to anything, and I'm pretty sure I'm ahead of toss since he cut probes and will be taking a late 3rd, even with the 12 hydras I built that game in response to his push.

Or you could just transition into some kind of roach/hydra/ling max and prevent his 3rd or even just outright kill him (this is what I would attempt, personally; at least try to trade off some of my army with his while transitioning out of hydra). Once the hydras are at his 3rd you just reinforce with speedroach/ling. Hydras with range (you get this once he retreats) are also pretty good at sieging his wall. I don't have a lot of experience with this specific build and hydras, but my best zvp build (in what is my best matchup) is roach/hydra and I've won plenty of games vs mid-masters by just busting down their wall, even when they did have colossi.

In the end you give up some mobility but you trade that for DPS and range vs pure roach/ling. Hydras are pretty darned good as long as colossi and templar are not in play.
Edited by Defenestratr on 11/1/2012 9:25 PM PDT
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11/01/2012 07:15 PMPosted by FeIdspar
You can go ahead and argue "his build sucks" or w/e, honestly the immo/sentry wasn't pulled off that well


I'm gonna go ahead and argue this. His first replay titled "immortal sentry all in" has the protoss moving out at 10:48 with 3 immortals and 6 sentries. It's one thing to say "these timings are a little bit off. I could shave off 15-20 seconds here or there." It's a completely different thing to say "these timings are a little bit off. my push is 2 minutes late."


What about in the replay I posted then? That's a 9:00 moveout and I hold with no flank and no hydra range vs immo/sentry/zeal.
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Since this discussion sort of faded out, a few zergs have crushed this build in competitive play, but almost always it can be attributed to the protoss player screwing up.

Here's what the zergs have been doing:

speed before lair
start roach production before lair, 8-10 roaches and then rally speedlings. The lair ends up starting quite late, after 8:30 instead of at 7:00. they cut drones at 70 supply, which is 60-63 drones depending on how many lings they made.

This gives you the tools you need to crush a 9:00 moveout from protoss, especially if they are being cute and trying to hide an immortal and make it look like they are just clearing a ling off of their 3rd base. Basically most of the protoss players weren't looking at their screen, and didn't cast a single forcefield until the whole army was surrounded (against speedlings and slow roaches off creep...) and lost all their sentries. But they easily have the tools to save the units and stay in their base and push out later with more units. they may even make a 4th immortal.

This buys the zerg time, but it also COSTS the zerg time. It doesn't buy time for lair tech to finish, because you delay your lair to do this. Roach speed is even later. infestation pit is even later. hydralisk den is even later.

I don't know how it balances out in the long run, because I haven't seen protoss stay in their base and delay the push.

the main thing is that protoss doesn't know if zerg is going lair or making aggressive roaches, so he doesn't know if he should move out or not. this is good - it creates a risk for the protoss.
but the zerg doesn't know either.
DRG has been doing this blindly against protoss. It gave him a really bad start against creator on daybreak (I'm pretty sure he made the roaches before seeing stargate), and it caused him to almost lose to DTs on belshir vestige (lair wasn't done when DTs warped in). DRG won because his counterattack killed half of creators probes, because he was making only stalkers. no sentries, and made defensive DTs very late. protoss mistake.
I'm pretty sure it also put DRG behind in the macro games in the OSL against Rain, but I can't watch vods to confirm and my memory was fuzzy from watching it live.
Edited by Oboeman on 11/13/2012 5:20 AM PST
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Give queens Warstomp. Lol
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Sen vs parting in the bnet wcs semi finals /thread
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