StarCraft® II

The Immortal Sentry All In

to go around to attack the drones


And lose helions that provide invaluable map control and creep control. Yep totally worth it.

you get to kill 10 drones, but on the flipside you have to start siegeing up from your ramp because you lost the helions that provided map control leading to like an extra 2 minutes the zerg has to prepare for your push.


because spending 200 minerals to make a couple more is impossible, right? i mean, its not good enough that you just hurt their economy, the same units ALSO need to survive for map control to be worth it.
Edited by Kelthar on 10/28/2012 12:15 PM PDT
Reply Quote
"map control" is a silly concept anyway. It doesn't matter how many hellions you have on the field. You don't need to roam around with 10 hellions to have "map control". Even with clouds of zerglings chasing your several hellions, you can scout expos just fine. And no matter how many hellions vs how many lings, the hellions should be cost-effective 100% of the time even if they die.
Reply Quote
The strength of the 1-1-1 was the versatility it offered. You never knew if it was going to be early cloaked banshees, marines/tanks, or some mixture involving ravens. All of these variants required different responses and the 1-1-1 was essentially fixed by the immortal buff since immortals were not a reasonable unit to build in all cases against the 1-1-1.

Holding an immortal/sentry allin is no different than a 7 gate +1 allin. Scout and build more units. You have the tools to deal with it, you just have to not go as crazy on drones. If you overdrone you die, but this is the way it has always been.
Edited by Blueduck on 10/28/2012 12:24 PM PDT
Reply Quote


BEcause then you die.


You die if you don't play greedily? Instead of opting for a 3 minute third how about faster upgrades and spines protecting the top of the ramp at your expansion? Not saying that fast thirds can't win you the game, but I feel like zergs just assume on FFE they can just take as many bases as they want.


Zerg has more stuff at 10 minutes when he goes for a fast third than when he stays on two base.
And if not more at 10, definitely way more at 11. 2 base openings aren't really an option against protoss because of every other single build besides the wonwonwon.

I think that you could beat this one build with 2 base infestor and lose to absolutely everything else. So protoss would be dumb to commit to this if there is any sign of 2 base play.
Edited by Oboeman on 10/28/2012 12:27 PM PDT
Reply Quote
The strength of the 1-1-1 was the versatility it offered. You never knew if it was going to be early cloaked banshees, marines/tanks, or some mixture involving ravens. All of these variants required different responses and the 1-1-1 was essentially fixed by the immortal buff since immortals were not a reasonable unit to build in all cases against the 1-1-1.

Holding this sort of allin is no different than a 7 gate +1 allin. Scout and build more units. You have the tools to deal with it, you just have to not go as crazy on drones.


What do you think about going 2 base zerg vs this all-in?

Just curious.


You know, I really hate 2 base allins against zerg. I know they are powerful, but I almost always go stargate or blink stalkers off of two bases. With this sort of composistion it isn't game over if I fail to do much damage and I can just transistion to a macro game. Why allin if I don't have to?

If I do decide to allin against a zerg (normally map dependent), I'm just going for a good ole-fashioned 5 gate.
Reply Quote
lol
let the meta handle it bro
for once can there be a build that's difficult for zerg to deal with?


It's been 11 months since the inception of the build, and Zergs have gone through:

1. Roach/hydra
2. Ling/baneling
3. Just cheese
4. Mass roaches.
5. Mass lings.
6. Combination of 4/5
7. Muta rush
8. Infestor rush
9. Ling/hydra/spine

The strength of the build is that it hits early enough that if a Zerg tries to rush Lair units off 3 bases, he's dead. But if he doesn't take a 3rd, the Protoss doesn't have to attack. So the Zerg is forced to take the 3rd and attempt to hold an attack where force fields don't allow him to engage.

Just the other day, Parting demolished LosirA even though LosirA broke through the wall with slings on a counter-attack and killed all the probes in the natural while making like 12 spines at home (immortals). There's a reason TL has coined the build the won/won/won.

Edit: The reason being, Parting's family name is Won, the Korean currency is the won, and the build just wins.
Edited by BcBroBama on 10/28/2012 12:30 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Holding an immortal/sentry allin is no different than a 7 gate +1 allin. Scout and build more units. You have the tools to deal with it, you just have to not go as crazy on drones. If you overdrone you die, but this is the way it has always been.


It's not nearly the same thing. Not at all. Sorry, but your bias is showing. I mean, yeah, late game PvZ sucks and I don't blame Protoss for choosing to 2 base all-in. But this specific all-in is actually just freaking stupid. The worst part, for me at least, about this build is that the building requirements are about the same for just about every other all-in or expand strategy the Protoss is going to use, so even scouting that it's coming is a !@#$%.
Edited by BcBroBama on 10/28/2012 12:33 PM PDT
Reply Quote
The strength of the build is that it hits early enough that if a Zerg tries to rush Lair off 3 bases, he's dead. But if he doesn't take a 3rd, the Protoss doesn't have to attack. So the Zerg is forced to take the 3rd and attempt to hold an attack where force fields don't allow him to engage.


You need to take your 3rd after you scout if its an allin or not. This build is a response to zerg hyperdroning off of 3 bases which invariably buried the protoss due to how early infestors/broodlord hit the base.

There is nothing wrong with zerg needing to delay a 3rd by a bit to be cautious if they suspect something is up. These sorts of allins are neccessary lest every game just turn into zerg hyper macro.

There's a reason TL has coined the build the won/won/won


This is like saying the encyopedia coined a term. TL is a huge website with many different opinions. It isn't good to try to portray this as some uniform consensus.
Reply Quote
10/28/2012 12:32 PMPosted by Blueduck
The strength of the build is that it hits early enough that if a Zerg tries to rush Lair off 3 bases, he's dead. But if he doesn't take a 3rd, the Protoss doesn't have to attack. So the Zerg is forced to take the 3rd and attempt to hold an attack where force fields don't allow him to engage.


You need to take your 3rd after you scout if its an allin or not. This build is a response to zerg hyperdroning off of 3 bases which invariably buried the protoss due to how early infestors/broodlord hit the base.

There is nothing wrong with zerg needing to delay a 3rd by a bit to be cautious if they suspect something is up. These sorts of allins are neccessary lest every game just turn into zerg hyper macro.

There's a reason TL has coined the build the won/won/won


This is like saying the encyopedia coined a term. TL is a huge website with many different opinions. It isn't good to try to portray this as some uniform consensus.


Read my post above this one, you ninjad me :P

And if you go to TL, it's pretty unanimous. The Protoss there just watch in horror, scared their race is about to be nerfed for one stupid build. The Terrans there sit with their faces in their palms, considering how quickly their race got nerfed in comparison. And the Zerg just sit there silently with tears in their eyes. Oh, and whenever it's Parting going up to play a PvZ, we all wait in anticipation :P

Also, the only way to be absolutely sure whether or not a Protoss is all-inning off of 2 bases is by like the 8-9 minute mark. The fastest version of the build has the units leaving at 9:30, I believe it was with just +1. If you take your 3rd that late, GG.
Edited by BcBroBama on 10/28/2012 12:36 PM PDT
Reply Quote
If this is a normal 2 base immortal sentry all in we are talking about, don't you just deal with it with roach/ling and drops?
Reply Quote
It's not nearly the same thing. Not at all. Sorry, but your bias is showing. I mean, yeah, late game PvZ sucks and I don't blame Protoss for choosing to 2 base all-in. But this specific all-in is actually just freaking stupid.


Since I'm not playing right now and probably flipping to zerg or terran in the expansion I don't know how my bias is showing. I do keep up on the metagame though and can tell you that you have the tools to hold this.

In regards to bias, I try very hard to evaluate faily. Bias would be some comment indicating team liquid was in agreement about something.

Zerg are still up on protoss on the ladder and in tournaments. Its not as if this thing is such a terror that no one knows how to beat it like the 1-1-1 was. The 1-1-1 crippled pvt for months with even the developers acknowledging it was a terror. Why not wait a bit till the metagame heshes out to see if zerg need tools to help with this.
Reply Quote
And if you go to TL, it's pretty unanimous.


That is like saying battle.net is unanimous. Even in the 1-1-1 days that site was never unanimous if the build was overpowered or not.
Reply Quote
Zerg are still up on protoss on the ladder and in tournaments. Its not as if this thing is such a terror that no one knows how to beat it like the 1-1-1 was. The 1-1-1 crippled pvt for months with even the developers acknowledging it was a terror. Why not wait a bit till the metagame heshes out to see if zerg need tools to help with this.


But it is. Zerg are still up on Protoss because Protoss are stupid and trying to expand. I hate to put it like this, but it's pretty much the truth. The only person who consistently wins PvZ off 3 bases is Seed, and that's because he does a 10 gate +3 blink stalker all-in off 3 bases on Entombed.

When Illusion was in Korea, he was watching Parting practice due to the Quantic/StarTale parternship. He noticed Parting only did one build in PvZ and asked him why. Parting responds by telling him that he hasn't lost with that build for about the last 50 times he's executed it, so he sees no reason to do anything else.
Reply Quote
Make spines, roaches, lings, flank with lings when he comes around the front. This build is really tough to beat even if you're prepared, if the toss has good FFs.

What's REALLY hard, though, is the 1 base varient with a warp prism where they drop an immortal and 2 sentries at the top of the ramp in your main, FF your ramp, warp in more sentries, and just go to town on your mineral line while keeping an infinite FF on your ramp.
Reply Quote
Here's the thing, I don't want to sound like some whiny little baby. But there's literally nowhere to look to in order to learn how to beat the build. It's been 11 months, and the pros have come up with NOTHING. I've just adopted Leenock's response to the StarTale version of the build, which is especially greedy. If you 10 pool every ZvP, you can lay the hurt on anyone trying to go 17 nexus without scouting and delay the push.

If you try to just play standard, you're leaving the game in their hands.
Reply Quote
Zerg has more stuff at 10 minutes when he goes for a fast third than when he stays on two base.
And if not more at 10, definitely way more at 11. 2 base openings aren't really an option against protoss because of every other single build besides the wonwonwon.

I think that you could beat this one build with 2 base infestor and lose to absolutely everything else. So protoss would be dumb to commit to this if there is any sign of 2 base play.


this is exactly what I said. Lol.


Good, we agree. I said it again because people were still saying that 3 base is "greedy". the fact is that 3 base opening holds off almost every protoss attack, including the ones that come significantly earlier than wonwonwon. it's not greedy. it's just that there has to be some way to react to beat this single push, and no one is doing it successfully yet.

If this is a normal 2 base immortal sentry all in we are talking about, don't you just deal with it with roach/ling and drops?

drops finishes too late. unless you take earlier gas for an earlier lair, in which case you don't have enough units even with drops, and you are more vulnerable to everything else. This is the conundrum. It hits at such a difficult time before any tech options kick in, but low tech units, even in massive quantities aren't enough. unless you are perfect and the protoss is bad (and this is what most zergs have been relying on - and now some of the protosses have stopped making mistakes so they stopped losing).

I'm not worried about this though, because I have 90%+ win rate in zvp on ladder with my cheese build (3 hatch roach/ling all-in at ~7:40). so i don't care about macro games lol.
if people play "safe" to my all-in, their immortal timing will come later and it is not nearly as scary.
Edited by Oboeman on 10/28/2012 12:49 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Here's the thing, I don't want to sound like some whiny little baby. But there's literally nowhere to look to in order to learn how to beat the build. It's been 11 months, and the pros have come up with NOTHING. I've just adopted Leenock's response to the StarTale version of the build, which is especially greedy. If you 10 pool every ZvP, you can lay the hurt on anyone trying to go 17 nexus without scouting and delay the push.

If you try to just play standard, you're leaving the game in their hands.


This comment I can sympathize with. Allins can be especially frustraing to deal with but it still doesn't compare to the 1-1-1 for the following reasons:

1) The 1-1-1 was a completely safe opening. This was due to the terran wall.
2) The 1-1-1 drew its strength from the variety of unit composistions it could field
3) Cloaked banshees were always a posibility
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]