StarCraft® II

The Immortal Sentry All In

Posts: 3,291
10/28/2012 12:45 PMPosted by Oboeman
I'm not worried about this though, because I have 90%+ win rate in zvp on ladder with my cheese build (3 hatch roach/ling all-in at ~7:40). so i don't care about macro games lol.


Mind sharing this build? Perhaps a replay? I'd love to learn it.
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Posts: 14,127
i try to spam it all over the forums as often as possible, how have you not seen it? :p
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6713481340
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Posts: 626
I used to lose to immortal sentry...then I learned to make like 8 hydras 8 roaches and as many slings as possible after only halfway saturating my third. Just make sure you meet him where if he wants his ff to be effective he will have to surround himself with them and waste them. Also, good creep spread and keep running in and shooting with the hyds/roach and pulling back before he gets them with ff. Initial stack of slings give him the reach around from behind when you finally do commit to engage and the subsequent waves of lings keep coming from diff angles. If he does kill your army pull the drones and keep making units, if you kill his army he is in trouble and you can deny his 3rd.
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Posts: 6,385
Here's the thing, I don't want to sound like some whiny little baby. But there's literally nowhere to look to in order to learn how to beat the build. It's been 11 months, and the pros have come up with NOTHING. I've just adopted Leenock's response to the StarTale version of the build, which is especially greedy. If you 10 pool every ZvP, you can lay the hurt on anyone trying to go 17 nexus without scouting and delay the push.

If you try to just play standard, you're leaving the game in their hands.


This comment I can sympathize with. Allins can be especially frustraing to deal with but it still doesn't compare to the 1-1-1 for the following reasons:

1) The 1-1-1 was a completely safe opening. This was due to the terran wall.
2) The 1-1-1 drew its strength from the variety of unit composistions it could field
3) Cloaked banshees were always a posibility


And here's the reason it does compare. The biggest the reason the 1-1-1 was so hard to hold was that the Protoss had to 1 gate expo because they had no idea whether or not the Terran was expanding behind his wall. So while you're taking a FE, your opponent is getting out units that require you to also tech. It was a pain in the !@#.

Why is the same thing? Protoss make the same buildings every game in PvZ. Off 2 bases, a robo, a twilight for upgrades, and 6-7 gates. Scouting buildings does almost nothing for the Zerg, he has to see the units. But since the Protoss is automatically on 2 bases due to the FFE, the Zerg does need a 3rd within a reasonable time constraint. But if the Zerg takes that 3rd, he can't tech hard enough to get out the units to beat the all-in. The Zerg can't afford to take the 3rd AFTER scouting the all-in because the all-in would literally hit around 30 seconds to 1 minute after it's scouted, the 3rd would make no difference. The best time to take the 3rd is actually at around the 3:50 to 4:00 mark because the Protoss forewent the option to punish it early.

So why not just 2 base? Because if the Protoss sees you on 2 bases, he doesn't have to attack. He just takes his 3rd and you may as well just leave the game. You production is terrible since you were on 2 bases this whole time and the production he gets from his earlier 3rd will basically guarantee his 4th and you can bet he'll be hitting you with a maxed army about the moment your hive finishes and your greater spire starts building.

Zerg has to take the quick 3rd, which doesn't allow him to tech fast enough to deal with the sentries. Which is the thing. It's the sentries. The immortals are great and get all the kills, but the only reason this is a build is because we're so hard outranged thanks to FF that we're just not allowed to attack. And with the warp prism behind your army, we just can't deny reinforcements.

Hell, do you watch GSL? Do you remember Jaedong vs Finale? "Oh $%^-, I'm running out of force fields...am I actually gonna lose this? Nah, I'll just keep warping in sentries, it's not like he can actually attack me or anything." After looking really strong, Jaedong finally loses because Finale had 17 sentries and 3 immortals.
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Posts: 285
10/28/2012 12:59 PMPosted by DobisPR
I used to lose to immortal sentry...then I learned to make like 8 hydras 8 roaches and as many slings as possible after only halfway saturating my third. Just make sure you meet him where if he wants his ff to be effective he will have to surround himself with them and waste them. Also, good creep spread and keep running in and shooting with the hyds/roach and pulling back before he gets them with ff. Initial stack of slings give him the reach around from behind when you finally do commit to engage and the subsequent waves of lings keep coming from diff angles. If he does kill your army pull the drones and keep making units, if you kill his army he is in trouble and you can deny his 3rd.


Yeah........if you play a Protoss with a brain......not the noobs you play....they will simply pull back when they see useless hydras, take a 3rd, and grab colosi tech, then u auto lose.

Hydras are 100% useless in the ZVP match up in the highest lvl of play, and even in the lower leagues if the person you play is not dumb.
Edited by Melaine on 10/28/2012 1:04 PM PDT
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Melanie...sorry to inform you but it was to stop the immortal sentry...not to kill colossus. Thats where your 12 corruptors come in. The noobs I play are masters and its worked wonders...what league are you in by the way? Learn to play using your own brain not based on what the forums say...holding immortals with roach ling is just wasteful and stupid. Add hydras and you hold it easy which then lets you tech to whatever the hell you want since you already have a 3rd halfway saturated and can drop a 4th at your convenience. For them to switch to Colossus tech gives you time to drop the spire and make corruptors. Even though it sounds like too many corruptors they have corrupt which is amazing on op units like immortals...stalkers by themselves are decent but not with some hydras and lings along with your roaches. Also help to kill any monkey warp prism play.
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Posts: 4,525
And here's the reason it does compare. The biggest the reason the 1-1-1 was so hard to hold was that the Protoss had to 1 gate expo because they had no idea whether or not the Terran was expanding behind his wall.


Actually nexus first was better; however, it was impossible to predict the 1-1-1 in order to do this in time since nexus first was an autoloss to bio at that point in the metagame. Also, protoss always 1 gate expand against terran. We never do anything else anymore.

Why is the same thing? Protoss make the same buildings every game in PvZ.


o.O

I'm sorry but I very rarely ever open the same build in every pvz. It is very very map dependent on how I open. Sometimes stargate is much better than robo.

Zerg has to take the quick 3rd, which doesn't allow him to tech fast enough to deal with the sentries. Which is the thing.


This is the biggest misconception about pvz. You do not have to be up on bases on the protoss early on anymore to win. In pvz you lose if the zerg gets a base up on you, you have to keep even or force the zerg to stay even with you. The droning power of the queen allows you to keep up. Don't get me wrong, it is preferable but you can delay your 3rd and just transistion into a quick 3/4 with an additional hatch in your main.

After looking really strong, Jaedong finally loses because Finale had 17 sentries and 3 immortals.


Point is, he could have won. I once played a zerg who started screaming at me because I kept fighting back and might have come back. Would zerg prefer protoss players just roll over and die so they can have a free 3rd every game?
Edited by Blueduck on 10/28/2012 1:15 PM PDT
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Posts: 14,127
Let's go over what makes a good wonwonwon so scary.

Wonwonwon is the new fad name for this build from TL. Won is ST_Parting's name (also the ST coach's name). Won is korean money. Won is winned. Wonwonwon.

It hits at a very precise timing when zerg lair tech isn't really done. Normally you'll see that roach speed is only barely finishing for the zerg when it is time for the fight, and roach speed is a 110 second upgrade.

Glial Reconstituion 110 seconds.
Ventral sacks 130 second.
Infestation pit + Pathogen glands 130 seconds.
Spire + mutalisks is 133 seconds.
Hydra den + grooved spines 120 seconds. (but hydralisks can be out at 73!)
Burrow 100 seconds
Baneling speed 110 seconds
Nydus network 50 seconds (!)

The lair itself takes 80 seconds to morph, and if zergs start their lair with the first 100 gas it'll start around 7 minutes. If they start it with the second 100 gas it'll be around 7:30.
So lair completes between 8:20 and 8:50, and the lair tech units start coming out about 2 minutes after that.
10:10 - 10:30 for 7 min lair.
10:40 - 11:00 for 7:30 lair.

It's also important to know the ling speed timing, which will be done at approximately 8:50 or 9:20 depending on if you went speed or lair first.

hydralisks are the only tech that can come out in time, and they can contribute to stopping this push. but hydralisks are also an automatic loss if they don't attack you.

Basically protoss has to move out very early to arrive at the zerg base before the lair tech starts kicking in. This is why you see protoss's go 3 immortals BEFORE observer. You also see them skip sentries until starting the robo.

If they had to make a sentry and an observer, this push is delayed by 40 seconds to a minute? I think that's more than enough time for lair tech to fully come into play.

if they skip obs, how do they know if you are going hydralisk or not?

What changes to zerg playstyle are necessary to force protoss to have to make a blind sentry and observer?

I'm already all-inning protoss regularly, and they will have a slightly better chance of holding if they make 3 blind sentries, but they are still dead if they don't see it coming. observer too late to see anything.
Edited by Oboeman on 10/28/2012 1:13 PM PDT
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Posts: 4,525
Let's go over what makes a good wonwonwon so scary.

Wonwonwon is the new fad name for this build from TL. Won is ST_Parting's name (also the ST coach's name). Won is korean money. Won is winned. Wonwonwon.

It hits at a very precise timing when zerg lair tech isn't really done. Normally you'll see that roach speed is only barely finishing for the zerg when it is time for the fight, and roach speed is a 110 second upgrade.

Glial Reconstituion 110 seconds.
Ventral sacks 130 second.
Infestation pit + Pathogen glands 130 seconds.
Spire + mutalisks is 133 seconds.
Hydra den + grooved spines 120 seconds. (but hydralisks can be out at 73!)
Burrow 100 seconds
Baneling speed 110 seconds
Nydus network 50 seconds (!)

The lair itself takes 80 seconds to morph, and if zergs start their lair with the first 100 gas it'll start around 7 minutes. If they start it with the second 100 gas it'll be around 7:30.
So lair completes between 8:20 and 8:50, and the lair tech units start coming out about 2 minutes after that.
10:10 - 10:30 for 7 min lair.
10:40 - 11:00 for 7:30 lair.

It's also important to know the ling speed timing, which will be done at approximately 8:50 or 9:20 depending on if you went speed or lair first.

hydralisks are the only tech that can come out in time, and they can contribute to stopping this push. but hydralisks are also an automatic loss if they don't attack you.

Basically protoss has to move out very early to arrive at the zerg base before the lair tech starts kicking in. This is why you see protoss's go 3 immortals BEFORE observer. You also see them skip sentries until starting the robo.

If they had to make a sentry and an observer, this push is delayed by 40 seconds to a minute? I think that's more than enough time for lair tech to fully come into play.

if they skip obs, how do they know if you are going hydralisk or not?

What changes to zerg playstyle are necessary to force protoss to have to make a blind sentry and observer?

I'm already all-inning protoss regularly, and they will have a slightly better chance of holding if they make 3 blind sentries, but they are still dead if they don't see it coming. observer too late to see anything.


Out of curiosity how do burrowed roaches work out against this build?
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Posts: 626
If I knew how to post replays I'd post some and maybe you guys could take a couple of things away from the build I use or even refine it. Also, I am active in playing lans so I try to use more than just one build since if you keep doing the same thing over and over will allow a player to metagame the hell out of you.
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Posts: 626
Blueduck, burrow roach works wonders if you snipe his obs. Esp with burrow move which lets them heal up so fast. :-)
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Posts: 4,525
10/28/2012 01:18 PMPosted by DobisPR
Blueduck, burrow roach works wonders if you snipe his obs. Esp with burrow move which lets them heal up so fast. :-)


For this allin don't protoss players even skip observers in many instances? Technically wouldn't this be an autoloss for the protoss if he does this?
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Posts: 14,127
Out of curiosity how do burrowed roaches work out against this build?

vanilla burrow doesn't do much. He will just kill your base while your units are burrowed and then when you unburrow he forcefields you onto one hex and backs up again.

They will have an observer rallied out after the warp prism, so they should have detection, but maybe not for the first clash.

tunneling claws.... good question. I haven't seen it in action, and I haven't tried it. You'd have to forgo roach speed (or double warren). This does largely negate the forcefields, but you still have 3 immortals wailing on you non-stop.

I feel like you would still lose everything, but I haven't seen anyone try it, especially with double warren.
This is definitely worth a try.


If I knew how to post replays

drop.sc
Edited by Oboeman on 10/28/2012 1:21 PM PDT
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Posts: 4,525
10/28/2012 01:20 PMPosted by Oboeman
Out of curiosity how do burrowed roaches work out against this build?

vanilla burrow doesn't do much. He will just kill your base while your units are burrowed and then when you unburrow he forcefields you onto one hex and backs up again.

They will have an observer rallied out after the warp prism, so they should have detection.

tunneling claws.... good question. I haven't seen it in action, and I haven't tried it. You'd have to forgo roach speed (or double warren). This does largely negate the forcefields, but you still have 3 immortals wailing on you non-stop.

I feel like you would still lose everything, but I haven't seen anyone try it, especially with double warren.


If I knew how to post replays

drop.sc


In order for the best chances for this allin to succeed though doesn't the protoss skip the observer most of the time? Even the prospect of this would force the protoss to slow down to get an observer up. This will delay the hit.
Edited by Blueduck on 10/28/2012 1:24 PM PDT
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Posts: 14,127
Yes, they delay the observer until after 3 immos + warp prism. It'll get there later, but you do have one shot for burrow to work its magic.
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Posts: 14,127
time to start doing blind mass baneling mines and forcing protoss to always wait for an observer? lol
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Posts: 4,525
10/28/2012 01:23 PMPosted by Oboeman
Yes, they delay the observer until after 3 immos + warp prism. It'll get there later, but you do have one shot for burrow to work its magic.


Any sort of warp prism play should be scouted though. Also you can only fit 2 immortals in a single warp prism. You can posistion your overlords to scout it and set your burrowed roach trap. He'll never see it coming and than it is an autowin for you.
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Posts: 4,525
10/28/2012 01:24 PMPosted by Oboeman
time to start doing blind mass baneling mines and forcing protoss to always wait for an observer? lol


No no, you're missing the point. If the metagame adapts to the point where this sort of build is expected and being stopped reguarly by a small modification of the standard zerg BO, in this case going for burrow before speed, it will stop being popular.
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Posts: 626
In masters they get two obs by the time they push out. One is scouting my base and the other one goes with their army. I was using quick mutas at one time but it makes me skimp out so much on minerals that I can barely afford like 6 by the time he is going to push out. If he just rams my base he will lose his army but he will usually take out a ton of drones and my nat and 3rd hatch so its irrecoverable. I find hydra ling to be the most useful but you can't stay on it, you have to tech switch out of it as soon as you realize he wont push out cuz colo inc'ing soon.
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Posts: 4,525
10/28/2012 01:29 PMPosted by DobisPR
In masters they get two obs by the time they push out. One is scouting my base and the other one goes with their army. I was using quick mutas at one time but it makes me skimp out so much on minerals that I can barely afford like 6 by the time he is going to push out. If he just rams my base he will lose his army but he will usually take out a ton of drones and my nat and 3rd hatch so its irrecoverable. I find hydra ling to be the most useful but you can't stay on it, you have to tech switch out of it as soon as you realize he wont push out cuz colo inc'ing soon.


If he goes for 2 observers that is a considerable delay if he wants some immortals. I really don't see how this is that much worse than the whole blink stalker, warp prism, sentry 2 base cheez play that is still popular on the ladder.
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