StarCraft® II

Proposed Infestor Consideration Changes

INTRO/PREFACE

It's no secret that the vast majority of the community does not care for the ability fungal growth. I am not going to make any claims on the balance of this ability - whether it's ridiculously OP, "balanced" perfectly as is, or is utterly necessarily for Zerg to function and not get stomped. These concerns are wholly irrelevant, as they could be fixed with other balance adjustment.

The entire disdain for the ability comes not from the splash damage, but it's ability to root units and cause a chain fungal that can kill your army without you ever getting to utilize/micro it, which can be exceedingly frustrating to play as and is undoubtedly boring to watch. As many have suggested on teamliquid, changing it to a slow (at whatever percentage is balanced) would have ridiculous benefits, as it would allow things such as sentry/stalker/immortal to FF off remaining infestors and slowly retreat out of chain fungal range, vikings to split up if caught, marines to SLOWLY push forward to the BL's or at least split if caught by an initial fungal and save ~25% of the troops, etc.

If you're on the train that fungal is OP, this might be a good nerf. If you're on the train that it's not OP and just a !@#$ty ability that's necessary, than remember it can be compensated with OTHER abilities, such as the one that's following...

PROPOSED CHANGE:

Fungal growth negates usage of all passive/usable abilities/techs. This would not negate already activated abilities. For example, if you stim prior to being fungaled, your stim would not be cancelled. However, you would be denied the ability to use a future stim during the four seconds you're actually fungaled. So if you can fungal a batch of unstimmed marines, they will not be able to stim. Same thing if you manage to get every single sentry with your initial fungal - they cannot subsequently FF at all, meaning the Zerg units could rush in or a chain fungal would still be achievable. Although if you don't get all the sentries, the ones not fungaled could FF off the infestor army and bail from the chain fungals.

These are the abilities it would affect. Depending on how strong the ability actually ends up being in gameplay, you could consequently adjust how much slow the fungal actually causes (if it ends up not really being that useful, then make it still slow at 80%. If it is super strong, make it only slow 30% or even remove the slow!).

Well %^-* Blizzard's max character limit per single post, I'll post the specific abilities it would affect in the subsequent second post. Another alternative to consider people are talking about on TL is to have it reduce the rate of fire by x% (of course, subject to balance) while also changing it from a complete stop to a certain slow percentage.
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Terran:
- SCVs can't mine, repair, or make buildings
- Marines can't stim
- Marauders can't stim and conc no longer applies
- Medivacs no longer can heal or unload
- Ghosts can't cloak (I usually cloak as soon as fungaled b/c as soon as it wears off, it activates, forcing an immediate chain fungal and making it so you don't have to wait for fungal to wear off to use it), EMP, or Nuke
- Siege tanks cannot Siege or Unsiege (could be SUPER powerful, but still better than current imo)
- Thors can't strike cannon (OH NOES)
- Vikings can't land (although I think this is already accomplished?)
- Ravens can't use autoturret, PDD, or seeker AND detection is cancelled
- Banshees can't cloak (once again not too significant but I ALWAYS cloak my fungaled shees preemptively and it helps far more than one would imagine)
- BC's cannot use Yamato

Protoss:
- Probes can't mine or make buildings
- Zealots can't charge (although at least they can still move unlike the current fungal which renders them almost useless)
- Stalkers can't blink (doesn't change :o)
- Sentries can't cast Guardian Shield/Force Field
- Dark Templar not only lose cloaking but can't morph into an Archon (although I guess they couldn't already)
- High Templar can't feedback, storm, or morph into Archon
- Observer loses detection ability on top of cloak
- Warp Prism can't switch modes, can't unload, (and if desirable, a fungal immediately cancels all warping in units from a Warp Prism!)
- Immortal hardened shields deactivated (up to debate...)
- Colossi can't walk up/down cliffs (although I don't know if this is doable especially if already on a cliff)
- Phoenix can't lift
- Void rays decharge to first phase
- Carriers can't remake interceptors (and maybe even can't launch if not already out? Although who wants to nerf them really....)
- Mothership can't cast vortex or recall

Zerg: (Well this part is kinda unnecessary but why not)
- Drones can't mine or morph into buildings
- No unit can burrow, although it's already like this
- If eggs are burrowed, perhaps their build time stops counting for 4 seconds? :o
- Stops zergling --> baneling timer from continuing during morph, detonated banelings lose their bonus dmg vs buildings
- Queens can't lay tumors, inject, or transfuse
- Overseers lose detection ability, overlords can no longer load/unload nor drop creep
- Roaches don't heal when burrowed, still can't unburrow (which would actually increase fungals potency)
- Hydra extra speed bonus diminished on creep, only moves as fast as the normal speed bonus gives Zerg units, and then movement speed is reduced based on that number (although possibly a totally unnecessary change)
- Muta glave shot no longer bounces
- Corrupters can't corrupt
- Other infestors can't cast infested Terrans, fungal, or NP (although this might cause the game to revolve around who can get a fungal on other infestors which might be dumb....)
- Corrupters can't morph into BL's, those midmorphing have their timer delayed
- BL reload is effectively delayed as the additional broodling fails to spawn to be thrown at the enemy, although it can attack with any already pregenerated broodlings
- Technically I guess it should negate ultras frenzied ability, although I'm not sure how that would work since frenzy is supposed to make it immune from snares.... well it would cancel burrow charge in HOTS!
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This is an awful change that will actually make Terran and Protoss whine MORE about Fungal Growth. I don't see how making a unit lose its abilities is any more interesting than simply rooting it to the spot.

Fungal Growth's stopping power is a necessary and thematic part of the Infestor that Blizzard wants to emphasize. When they patched the game so it locked down Blink, the reason was both thematic and balance-related. They wanted to underscore the element of total immobility. Tell me how you stop mass Mutalisk, Void Ray, Phoenix, or Hellion without the ability to hold them still? Fungal Growth is fine as it is, due to the Infestor itself. The unit is bulbous and difficult to maneuver, making the Infestor easy to Snipe, EMP, Feedback, or simply dispatch.
Edited by RabbitHazard on 11/5/2012 12:14 AM PST
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what people don't realize is that fungal growth is strong because the rest of the race's units suck in comparison to any other unit combination from the other 2 races.
bioball, any form of t2 deathball from toss aside from mass zealots can easily beat a zergling/bane army by cost/supply, and roach armies by supply once they get a decent amount.
not to mention even if u have the amount of fungals zergs need more bases and infestors are slow as heck so they can't go to each base and help defend in time.
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11/05/2012 02:19 AMPosted by kavinh
what people don't realize is that fungal growth is strong because the rest of the race's units suck in comparison to any other unit combination from the other 2 races


Exactly. If zerg had another--viable--mid/late game option then we would be happy to use it! Until then, we have to rely on the ONE thing that actually works in our race: Infestors.
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Exactly. If zerg had another--viable--mid/late game option then we would be happy to use it! Until then, we have to rely on the ONE thing that actually works in our race: Infestors.
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Arguably one of the most stupid !@#$ing arguments I read by bnet people. "We *NEED* infestors because we don't have alternatives."

Yes you %^-*ing do, even if they aren't as strong. Alternatives might not be as strong, and that might mean you'll win less. Good. Zerg is winning too much already ONCE they already get tons of infestors. It's not like DRG doesn't !@#$ on people regularly with ling/bane/muta and what not.

Other options are still good, they're just not as good as infestors.

Amusing you can say I don't understand when my highest winrate is with Zerg, and I play Random as a high masters. Used to be a GM Zerg.
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11/04/2012 10:59 PMPosted by FabIntegral
It's no secret that the vast majority of the community does not care for the ability fungal growth. I am not going to make any claims on the balance of this ability - whether it's ridiculously OP, "balanced" perfectly as is, or is utterly necessarily for Zerg to function and not get stomped. These concerns are wholly irrelevant, as they could be fixed with other balance adjustment.


Arguably one of the most stupid !@#$ing arguments I read by bnet people. "We *NEED* infestors because we don't have alternatives."

Yes you %^-*ing do, even if they aren't as strong. Alternatives might not be as strong, and that might mean you'll win less. Good. Zerg is winning too much already ONCE they already get tons of infestors. It's not like DRG doesn't !@#$ on people regularly with ling/bane/muta and what not.

Other options are still good, they're just not as good as infestors.

Amusing you can say I don't understand when my highest winrate is with Zerg, and I play Random as a high masters. Used to be a GM Zerg.
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Siege tanks cannot Siege or Unsiege (could be SUPER powerful, but still better than current imo)


it already does this, and it isn't exactly super powerful because you will usually be losing infestors every time you fungal tanks

Mothership can't cast vortex or recall

High Templar can't feedback, storm, or morph into Archon

Sentries can't cast Guardian Shield/Force Field

and if desirable, a fungal immediately cancels all warping in units from a Warp Prism!

- Medivacs no longer can heal or unload

these are HUGE. I think I'd much prefer your fungal over the current one (depending on how big the slow is)

- Other infestors can't cast infested Terrans, fungal, or NP (although this might cause the game to revolve around who can get a fungal on other infestors which might be dumb....)

I agree this would be awful.

one other complaint would be that you lose the satisfaction of watching non-combat shield marines stim to death after a fungal.
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Arguably one of the most stupid !@#$ing arguments I read by bnet people. "We *NEED* infestors because we don't have alternatives."

Yes you %^-*ing do, even if they aren't as strong. Alternatives might not be as strong, and that might mean you'll win less. Good. Zerg is winning too much already ONCE they already get tons of infestors. It's not like DRG doesn't !@#$ on people regularly with ling/bane/muta and what not.

Other options are still good, they're just not as good as infestors.

Amusing you can say I don't understand when my highest winrate is with Zerg, and I play Random as a high masters. Used to be a GM Zerg.


So we should use a weaker army composition instead of infestors so that we can lose more because we already win too much. Sounds like logic.
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11/04/2012 10:59 PMPosted by FabIntegral
It's no secret that the vast majority of the community does not care for the ability fungal growth.


Let me translate this quote from "Terran language" to "Zerg language":

OH NOEZ! I CAN'T A-MOVE TO WIN AND MUST SPLIT MY UNITS! THIS GAME IS IMBALANCED!!!!!!!! WHY DOES BLIZZARD HATE ME!?! NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
Edited by tBz on 11/12/2012 11:06 AM PST
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Make fungal growth more like Protoss pi storms where Terran can actually use skills to negate it's harmful effect. As of now it's hard for Terran players to properly deal with FG because it eliminates all skills. I don't know why blizzard made zerg too micro friendly/easy.
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11/12/2012 11:20 AMPosted by Hassan
it's hard for Terran players to properly deal with FG because it eliminates all skills

/facepalm. Are you really dumb enough to think people will believe !@#$ like that? Its obvious you are blatantly lying (or you have no clue what you are talking about, take your pick).

LEARN TO SPLIT YOUR UNITS. Or maybe that's not "skill", eh?
Edited by tBz on 11/12/2012 1:55 PM PST
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Arguably one of the most stupid !@#$ing arguments I read by bnet people. "We *NEED* infestors because we don't have alternatives."

Yes you %^-*ing do, even if they aren't as strong. Alternatives might not be as strong, and that might mean you'll win less. Good. Zerg is winning too much already ONCE they already get tons of infestors. It's not like DRG doesn't !@#$ on people regularly with ling/bane/muta and what not.

Other options are still good, they're just not as good as infestors.

Amusing you can say I don't understand when my highest winrate is with Zerg, and I play Random as a high masters. Used to be a GM Zerg.


So we should use a weaker army composition instead of infestors so that we can lose more because we already win too much. Sounds like logic.


... clearly you have reading comprehension issues.

There is no incentive to use anything else besides infestors right now. We can agree on that, and seemingly that only. The point is that infestors themselves are a terribly !@#$ty unit (not in power, in design).

If Zergs are winning 66% of the games once they amass a critical amount of infestors, then something is wrong with it. If we nerf the infestor, and force alternatives which are not as good as infestors (by nerfing the infestor or changing its role), and Zerg only win 50% as a result, then that is good.

The point of this thread isn't to "find ways to make Zerg better." It's to fix the utterly %^-*ty design the infestor has of chain fungaling.

11/12/2012 11:00 AMPosted by tBz
It's no secret that the vast majority of the community does not care for the ability fungal growth.


Let me translate this quote from "Terran language" to "Zerg language":

OH NOEZ! I CAN'T A-MOVE TO WIN AND MUST SPLIT MY UNITS! THIS GAME IS IMBALANCED!!!!!!!! WHY DOES BLIZZARD HATE ME!?! NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!


Except the penalty of not splitting your units is your units auto dying with no micro capacity. That's retarded. It has nothing to do with the opponents playing terribly. You're trying to argue this point to a high masters random player, who's experienced both sides, and it's simply laughable that you can't see how the spell completely inhibiting micro is terrible for gameplay.

Should we make it so psi storm does an insta 80 damage to your units instead of over time? I mean, if you don't split your units as Zerg you deserve to get 80 damage to them all? No, it'd be !@#$ing stupid.
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Arguably one of the most stupid !@#$ing arguments I read by bnet people. "We *NEED* infestors because we don't have alternatives."

Yes you %^-*ing do, even if they aren't as strong. Alternatives might not be as strong, and that might mean you'll win less. Good. Zerg is winning too much already ONCE they already get tons of infestors. It's not like DRG doesn't !@#$ on people regularly with ling/bane/muta and what not.

Other options are still good, they're just not as good as infestors.

Amusing you can say I don't understand when my highest winrate is with Zerg, and I play Random as a high masters. Used to be a GM Zerg.


So we should use a weaker army composition instead of infestors so that we can lose more because we already win too much. Sounds like logic.


... clearly you have reading comprehension issues.

There is no incentive to use anything else besides infestors right now. We can agree on that, and seemingly that only. The point is that infestors themselves are a terribly !@#$ty unit (not in power, in design).

If Zergs are winning 66% of the games once they amass a critical amount of infestors, then something is wrong with it. If we nerf the infestor, and force alternatives which are not as good as infestors (by nerfing the infestor or changing its role), and Zerg only win 50% as a result, then that is good.

The point of this thread isn't to "find ways to make Zerg better." It's to fix the utterly %^-*ty design the infestor has of chain fungaling.

11/12/2012 11:00 AMPosted by tBz
It's no secret that the vast majority of the community does not care for the ability fungal growth.


Let me translate this quote from "Terran language" to "Zerg language":

OH NOEZ! I CAN'T A-MOVE TO WIN AND MUST SPLIT MY UNITS! THIS GAME IS IMBALANCED!!!!!!!! WHY DOES BLIZZARD HATE ME!?! NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!


Except the penalty of not splitting your units is your units auto dying with no micro capacity. That's retarded. It has nothing to do with the opponents playing terribly. You're trying to argue this point to a high masters random player, who's experienced both sides, and it's simply laughable that you can't see how the spell completely inhibiting micro is terrible for gameplay.

Should we make it so psi storm does an insta 80 damage to your units instead of over time? I mean, if you don't split your units as Zerg you deserve to get 80 damage to them all? No, it'd be !@#$ing stupid.
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11/12/2012 06:24 PMPosted by FabIntegral
There is no incentive to use anything else besides infestors right now. We can agree on that, and seemingly that only. The point is that infestors themselves are a terribly !@#$ty unit (not in power, in design).


except zerg didnt use infestors as much prior to this infestor brood craze. The results were pretty bad and it was obvious terrans were dominating pretty badly. Zerg didnt exactly run wild in mlg either. If i rmember right the top 8 ppl who actually won money were still majority terran
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Except the penalty of not splitting your units is your units auto dying with no micro capacity.


The only difference is that storms you dodge during, fungals you dodge before. There is still micro it just changes when you do it.
Edited by tBz on 11/13/2012 11:02 AM PST
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The only difference is that storms you dodge during, fungals you dodge before. There is still micro it just changes when you do it.

Yes, it's kind of like the difference between dodging knives and dodging bullets. Either way, you're dodging.
Edited by BlackAdder on 11/13/2012 11:12 AM PST
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11/13/2012 11:09 AMPosted by BlackAdder
The only difference is that storms you dodge during, fungals you dodge before. There is still micro it just changes when you do it.

Yes, it's kind of like the difference between dodging knives and dodging bullets. Either way, you're dodging.

If bullets travel as fast as a infestor walks, then yes. Otherwise, no. You have plenty of time to pre-split your units.
Edited by tBz on 11/13/2012 12:39 PM PST
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If bullets travel as fast as a infestor walks, then yes. Otherwise, no. You have plenty of time to pre-split your units.

Since you're mixing metaphors, let's clear up our terms, shall we?

Fungal = bullet
Infestor == slow !@# gunman
HT == slow $%^ knifeman in a tank of molasses,
Well, ok he's got a mortar full of acid

The point is pre-splitting absolutely can't prevent the gunman from shooting you, it just means he needs more bullets. And if you're wearing a bullet-proof vest and his first shot just knocks you to the floor... well, he gets to keep shooting.

I'm not going to argue anything is "imba", because that's a discussion I don't want to be in. But if you're going to say stupid things like "dodge fungals" when fungals are instantaneous, it makes my head hurt. You don't dodge them, you reduce your exposure to them by spreading out.
IRL, soldiers often spread out and take cover to reduce the damage of machine gun fire. What they sure as hell don't do is "dodge bullets". The time for the infestor or HT to walk into
range to cast can be an issue.. but shouldn't be if you're individual controlling the unit. If what you're aiming at moves, you override the previous command, and even there infestors are way faster than HTs even off creep.
Edited by BlackAdder on 11/13/2012 1:02 PM PST
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