StarCraft® II

A Possible P Solution to Infestors

Posts: 17,411
11/12/2012 10:34 AMPosted by VIPER
How do you skip Immortals when facing Mech? It only takes a few Ht's with a few Sentries to Forcefield and storm. One Ghost cannot kill THAT many Archons and besides, Wouldn't you send in Zealots to take out ghosts?
Doesn't work that way with Thor/Hellions in the way. FF does not work vs Thors and Hellions MELT zealots in VERY cost-efficient trades... 4 Blue Flame Hellions can kill 12-15 Zealots EASILY, for significantly less cost in minerals and food... Also, Ghosts do extra damage to Light, making them super effective against Zealots behind a Hellion wall after EMP are landed. For Protoss to engage a well controlled Hellion/Thor/Ghost army, he'd HAVE to get air units like Carriers to force Terran to spend resources on Vikings, and even then it isn't a guaranteed cost-effective trade for Protoss because the ground army of Terran WILL melt Archon/Immortal/Zealot VERY easily.

You'd be surprised how effective Terran Mech is vs unshielded Immortals and damaged Archons. Just to paint a picture: The same resources in Archons will ALWAYS lose to the same resources in Thors with maybe 1-2 Thors killed and 0 Archons remaining.

The FEW HTs left that CAN either storm or feedback will be BARELY sufficient to allow a Protoss to win on the ground, but it would cost a Protoss significantly more in resources and units to do so. If Protoss is able to win in that way, it means that he has already surpassed the Terran in production capacity and economy and deserves to win. If the trade is slightly in favor of Terran, then the next reinforcement wave of mech will put the next battle in favor of Terran 100%.

Also FF + Storm is only really good against bio armies. Against Mech if you have more than 4 HTs against the ground army, you're doing it wrong.

PS:

Sentries SUCK vs mech...
Edited by Zamara on 11/12/2012 1:41 PM PST
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PvT problems. Colossus/ht death balls would be too fast for how hard they are to engage properly.


Even with vikings and mech?

Templars are the things that keep vikings away, so buffing templars will naturally make it harder to engage with them.

The death ball would become more mobile than mech, and since you need to engage with a full mech army to stand a chance against a death ball, it ends up with the death ball having a mobility advantage without the strength disadvantage that normally comes with a mobility advantage.

So yes and yes.
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Your idea is much better, but I don't think it will change much.


Do you have a better suggestion?


To change infestors.

Take away the root on fungal, and make it do 36/whatever is found to be a good number damage over 2 seconds that sticks to a target. This stops engagements from being forced the moment a decent fungal lands and also fixes the problem with infested terrans costing no supply and being great at fighting since you can now run away from them.

This will still make infestors a force to be reckoned with against terran, since 36 damage over 2 seconds isn't a trivial amount of damage when you are fighting marines. The terran will basically be forced to run away and waste all their medivac energy if good fungals hit.

Vs protoss, fungal would be severely diminished late game since 36 damage without a root means almost nothing. This makes motherships no longer needed. Then to balance out the motherships, buffing NP to the point where it's easier to land a NP than it is to land a vortex would make it much riskier to build motherships. This would reduce vortexes to a method of recovering a game after being behind since it's more likely your vortex will be used against you than it is for you to win a game with it.
Edited by sTsTtzy on 11/12/2012 1:17 PM PST
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Posts: 566
It would make lategame PvT pretty absurd.

It's already difficult to engage the HT/Collosus/Gateway lategame. It would make EMP'ing templar harder than it already is; if protoss lands one good storm it's game over for terran. It's probably better just to nerf the infestor in whatever way.
Edited by RyterA on 11/12/2012 1:21 PM PST
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Do you have a better suggestion?


To change infestors.

Take away the root on fungal, and make it do 36/whatever is found to be a good number damage over 2 seconds that sticks to a target. This stops engagements from being forced the moment a decent fungal lands and also fixes the problem with infested terrans costing no supply and being great at fighting since you can now run away from them.

This will still make infestors a force to be reckoned with against terran, since 36 damage over 2 seconds isn't a trivial amount of damage when you are fighting marines. The terran will basically be forced to run away and waste all their medivac energy if good fungals hit.

Vs protoss, fungal would be severely diminished late game since 36 damage without a root means almost nothing. This makes motherships no longer needed. Then to balance out the motherships, buffing NP to the point where it's easier to land a NP than it is to land a vortex would make it much riskier to build motherships. This would reduce vortexes to a method of recovering a game after being behind since it's more likely your vortex will be used against you than it is for you to win a game with it.


This would destroy ZvP by making Broodlord/infester/corrupter worthless. It would also make EVERY ZvZ a muta war.
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11/12/2012 01:45 PMPosted by Hunta
This would destroy ZvP by making Broodlord/infester/corrupter worthless. It would also make EVERY ZvZ a muta war.
I agree for the ZvZ part, but then for that matchup, anything ELSE can be buffed for that matchup without affecting the other matchups too much. I disagree that BL/Infestor would be COMPLETELY worthless. They'd be weaker, sure.

But then Zerg would be forced to use units like Hydras, and would be forced to consider Nydus and drop play more seriously, and learn to use Baneling drops in economy as a more standard way of playing, and as such it would give Blizzard the opportunity to buff the NON-Infestor tech routes to compensate which can ONLY be good for Zerg and the game in the future.
Edited by Zamara on 11/12/2012 1:50 PM PST
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Doesn't work that way with Thor/Hellions in the way. FF does not work vs Thors and Hellions MELT zealots in VERY cost-efficient trades... 4 Blue Flame Hellions can kill 12-15 Zealots EASILY, for significantly less cost in minerals and food... Also, Ghosts do extra damage to Light, making them super effective against Zealots behind a Hellion wall after EMP are landed. For Protoss to engage a well controlled Hellion/Thor/Ghost army, he'd HAVE to get air units like Carriers to force Terran to spend resources on Vikings, and even then it isn't a guaranteed cost-effective trade for Protoss because the ground army of Terran WILL melt Archon/Immortal/Zealot VERY easily.

You'd be surprised how effective Terran Mech is vs unshielded Immortals and damaged Archons. Just to paint a picture: The same resources in Archons will ALWAYS lose to the same resources in Thors with maybe 1-2 Thors killed and 0 Archons remaining.

The FEW HTs left that CAN either storm or feedback will be BARELY sufficient to allow a Protoss to win on the ground, but it would cost a Protoss significantly more in resources and units to do so. If Protoss is able to win in that way, it means that he has already surpassed the Terran in production capacity and economy and deserves to win. If the trade is slightly in favor of Terran, then the next reinforcement wave of mech will put the next battle in favor of Terran 100%.

Also FF + Storm is only really good against bio armies. Against Mech if you have more than 4 HTs against the ground army, you're doing it wrong.

PS:

Sentries SUCK vs mech...


I know :P
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11/12/2012 01:48 PMPosted by Zamara
This would destroy ZvP by making Broodlord/infester/corrupter worthless. It would also make EVERY ZvZ a muta war.
I agree for the ZvZ part, but then for that matchup, anything ELSE can be buffed for that matchup without affecting the other matchups too much. I disagree that BL/Infestor would be COMPLETELY worthless. They'd be weaker, sure.

But then Zerg would be forced to use units like Hydras, and would be forced to consider Nydus and drop play more seriously, and learn to use Baneling drops in economy as a more standard way of playing, and as such it would give Blizzard the opportunity to buff the NON-Infestor tech routes to compensate which can ONLY be good for Zerg and the game in the future.

By worthless I mean blink stalkers blinking under the Zerg army and cost efficently owning it
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11/12/2012 01:45 PMPosted by Hunta
This would destroy ZvP by making Broodlord/infester/corrupter worthless. It would also make EVERY ZvZ a muta war.


Well you have to change something when the game is so stagnant and the late game is so gimmicky (archon toilet) and it needs to be a drastic change. Overall, it would end up making zerg use much more aggressive unit mixes, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Brood lords wouldn't go away at all, they would just have different units guarding them.

Infestors still would have a purpose, it just wouldn't be viable to build 15 of them and call it an army.

ZvZ would devolve into roach/hydra all in vs mutas or just straight muta vs muta, but that matchup sucks anyway.

Plus this...
11/12/2012 01:48 PMPosted by Zamara
and as such it would give Blizzard the opportunity to buff the NON-Infestor tech routes to compensate which can ONLY be good for Zerg and the game in the future.


So yes, it would totally !@#$ with the current metagame and cause drastic swings in how people play, but that isn't a bad thing seeing how stupid the current metagame is.
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Posts: 742
11/12/2012 10:26 AMPosted by Elemental
this change effects tvp more then pvz and it effects a lot more of the game then just controlling infestors. HT can be used against anything zerg has (besides maybe ultralisks) a increase in speed will help against everything fairly equally.


PvZ: Zerglings are basically free (once you get a couple of expansions), roaches are armored and can burrow to rapidly heal and escape. Hydras, with their speed upgrade, should be able to dodge and/or snipe High Temps. Mutas can usually run away, and corruptors are a very tanky unit. Clumped broodlords may be in trouble, but their large size usually spreads them out.

PvT: As I said before, it will be hard for a Protoss to have a good amount of sentries AND a good amount of HTs, which can be EMP'd or plain sniped. Marauders can withstand Psionic storm, and the casting range is 9, so sieged tanks would take care of any psi storms.

Edit: In PvT, I'm assuming that once T sees High Templar Tech, he will go for ghosts. This is usually what happens, in my experience.


sooo your whole augment is assuming the fact storm is a worthless spell??? im thinking troll at this point
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Posts: 903
11/12/2012 05:29 PMPosted by Aramil


PvZ: Zerglings are basically free (once you get a couple of expansions), roaches are armored and can burrow to rapidly heal and escape. Hydras, with their speed upgrade, should be able to dodge and/or snipe High Temps. Mutas can usually run away, and corruptors are a very tanky unit. Clumped broodlords may be in trouble, but their large size usually spreads them out.

PvT: As I said before, it will be hard for a Protoss to have a good amount of sentries AND a good amount of HTs, which can be EMP'd or plain sniped. Marauders can withstand Psionic storm, and the casting range is 9, so sieged tanks would take care of any psi storms.

Edit: In PvT, I'm assuming that once T sees High Templar Tech, he will go for ghosts. This is usually what happens, in my experience.


sooo your whole augment is assuming the fact storm is a worthless spell??? im thinking troll at this point

Yes, I am obviously a troll, as I spent about 2 pages replying to comments.

I didn't say it was worthless, but when you face a competent T or Z with the ability to split their units, psi storm becomes a lot less effective, especially with medivacs vs T.
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Why is the link broken?
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Posts: 903
11/12/2012 06:42 PMPosted by Drathjon
Why is the link broken?

It may be because it is to the EU b.net. Sorry if it doesn't work.
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Posts: 915
protoss does not need to be buffed
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