StarCraft® II

Infestor vs Hydralisk

Posts: 514
I see alot of complaints about how infestors are so OP ( most of them I believe are people who don't know how to counter them or don't want to micro because they are fond of A- move play) but I agree they should be Hive tech, I don't think their abilities are overpowered but they are a great late game unit. However there is the issue of rebalancing Zerg to compensate.

As a Zerg player I feel as though the Zerg race has very few different viable tech options. You pretty much rely on infestors for anti air exclusively. Corruptors are good but lack range therefore forcing them over enemy army's to be killed and they don't do enough damage to kill Phoenix harass or muta harass. Infestors do their job better because they can't.

They are also much more cost efficient than hydras. Hydras cost 100min and 50gas for an 80hp unit, when you can make a slightly less hp and damage unit from infestors and use them when you need them making them easily deployable. Hydras are not deployable as they are slower than molasses in snow.

I think the biggest issue is Hydra HP, it's too easy to lose such an expensive unit to justify making them. Collosus will tear them apart, hellions, banelings, siege tanks, etc. too many hard counters for hydras mainly because they are so squishy.

Another reason no one makes them is because they aren't near as fun as infestors. There is nothing more than A-moving with them. It would be fun if they had a some sort of ability- for example Marauders have concussive shell which adds a fun dynamic to them- not saying they should get that but maybe something similar.

Here's some ideas what I think would make Zerg a little more balanced and army compositions a little more interesting.

- Move Infestor to Hive tech making the Hydralisk den the building required for upgrade to Hive.
-Give Hydralisks 100hp (up from 80)
-Give Hydralisks a slight speed buff ( not an upgrade)
-Make some sort of ability for hydras researchable after Hive tech
Ideas: armor piercing spines; units attacked by Hydralisks have armor reduced by 1 ( just as an idea- feel free to add your own)
Edited by Grundorf on 11/6/2012 8:56 AM PST
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Posts: 1,051
Yeah I definitely agree with this, if they're going to do something to the infestor they should buff the hydra in some way to compensate. 100hp is probably too much, but their speed is such a huge issue, and there's no reason why they shouldn't come with 6 range out the gate.

Honestly though I still think hydras are underused in today's meta; they have their place, but people don't even bother with them because infestors are so strong. Maybe a nerf to IT's and a buff to hydras to actually encourage having both in an endgame composition.
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Posts: 2,508
Give hydras a speed-burrow move so that once researched it essentially becomes their primary mode of transportation. It gets them to where they need to be, but if they are out of position still get slaughtered, but can't chase warp gate units.

It'd be more zergy too.
Edited by Toortanga on 11/6/2012 10:39 AM PST
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Posts: 514
Give hydras a speed-burrow move so that once researched it essentially becomes their primary mode of transportation. It gets them to where they need to be, but if they are out of position still get slaughtered, but can't chase warp gate units.

It'd be more zergy too.


I really like that idea except I feel like that would make them too much like roaches, and could be a little too powerful to have another cloaked threat.
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Posts: 2,508
Give hydras a speed-burrow move so that once researched it essentially becomes their primary mode of transportation. It gets them to where they need to be, but if they are out of position still get slaughtered, but can't chase warp gate units.

It'd be more zergy too.


I really like that idea except I feel like that would make them too much like roaches, and could be a little too powerful to have another cloaked threat.


Isn't that the point? For more army cohesiveness? You could also make the hydra unburrow slower.
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Posts: 2,949
except the game is already balanced...why nerf the infestor and buff other units...its too late in the game to do that. blizzard is moving on to hots.
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Posts: 382
If the infestor was hive tech that would be nice. Or instead keep it at lair tech and give fungal growth like a 30sec cooldown to prevent chain fungaling. That way players who actually do a really good split and dodge the fungals cant just get fungaled again 5 seconds later.

I really think the hydralisk needs a big buff too. If it was tweaked carefully it could become the standard lair tech unit.

HP now 100, no longer need the range upgrade, they should spawn with it. speed upgrade is lair tech.

Also maybe bonus damage vs biological, or maybe even massive? That way they would actually be viable in late game matchups vs thors/colossus/archons etc.

Thoughts?
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Posts: 1,289
11/06/2012 02:57 PMPosted by Vest
If the infestor was hive tech that would be nice.


No it's a terrible idea, that would make 3 base robo all in indefensible for Zerg. It's an awful idea.

Why would P want a stronger Hydra at the expense to a weaker Infestor? That would pretty much force every P to race for Colossus off of 2 base and cower in his base until he has enough sentries and stalkers to either 2 base all in or take a overly safe and majorly delayed 3rd (which is a losing option).

The Infestor really doesn't come online as a powerful force until at around 13-14min+ and even at that point in the game you'll have no more than 5-6, they are up to either all in against P's 3rd or key to defending a P's 3 base robo all in. P until then controls the initiative and flow of the game...take that away and P's T3 can't come into play and P will always lose with just gateway units.

If you disrupt the unit balance and buff the Hydralisk (by either making them more tanky or giving them lair speed) you disrupt key timings i.e. when P is allowed to take a safe 3rd, when P can hit Z before Z hits hive, etc. which will give P even less options. On the flipside, it's also a huge nerf to Z's ability to defend a 3 base colossus all in which is already extremely difficult to defend even with the current Infestor. This means we'll just be Hydralisk all inning off 2 base every game since no matter how much you buff the Hydralisk unless its redesigned drastically a Colossus Sentry army will destroy an infinity number of them.
Edited by stephead on 11/6/2012 5:23 PM PST
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Posts: 209
Give Hydra +2 Range vs air and the Speed Buff.. that's possibly the easiest way to turn the Hydra into an Anti-Air unit without disrupting much else.

And just Nerf Infestors fungal against air.
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Posts: 626
If you give hydras range right off the bat and make them 1 supply that'll fix them enough. If they were fast off creep they would be too deadly with their massive dps. Esp if you couple them with roach/bane and slings like I do :-) To use hydras well you HAVE to have good creep spread, which in turns helps all of your other units as well. I hate trying to run away from speed banelings when on creep because they are so damn fast.
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Posts: 209
If you make Hydra's 1 supply that's too powerful and will mess with too many things since they were balanced to tie with stalkers in 1v1 fights

Speed won't necessarily make them deadlier against ground units since they should still have 6 range vs ground. It will increase they're survivability to run away from danger or chase down the very fast Air units.

That's all Hydras really need to do... just do they're job as Zerg's ONLY ground Anti-Air unit
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Posts: 1,289
Give Hydra +2 Range vs air and the Speed Buff.. that's possibly the easiest way to turn the Hydra into an Anti-Air unit without disrupting much else.

And just Nerf Infestors fungal against air.


This destroys Robo, there's no incentive to open anything but ling hydra since hydras now have the same range as colossus, and speed hydras at lair kills stargate + templar openings since hydras can now easily dodge storm.

You can't just juggle between infestor nerfs and hydra buffs.

The whole game is a big clusterf*ck of imbalance, if you nerf lair infestor you have to nerf robo and buff templar, but if you do that you bring back the dominance of terran 1-1-1, etc.

There's a good reason why Blizz is waiting until HoTS to deal with these cross-dependent imbalances, because the better balancing strategy is to introduce units that soft counter the currently "imbalanced" units, rather than to keep fiddling with the fragile and irritating statistical balance we have now.

If you're protoss and you're losing to infestors, you're playing lazy and deathballing. Of course a Zerg that's left alone should be allowed to counter 3 base all in death balls given how difficult it is for Zerg to be aggressive in the midgame given our choice of units.

Learn how to 4 gate harass into immortal sentry stalker all in, or learn how to 2 gate zealot harass into +2 blink stalker snipe a 3rd then transition into immortal sentry stalker all in, or learn how to drop play, etc. But don't come to the forms and QQ because your lazy no skill 3 base robo all in failed because of spine walls and infestors.
Edited by stephead on 11/7/2012 12:33 AM PST
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Posts: 514
Right now I don't believe the game is imbalanced, and if it is, it is by a very small margin, I see pro players win vs all kinds of matchups.

I do however feel that Zerg does rely on Infestors, and Hydralisks are rarely used in comparison. As a fundamental unit in the history of starcraft I feel that Hydralisks should grow with Sc2 WoL and HOTS. They aren't a fun unit to use at the moment, an they aren't cost efficient either. I would just like to see some more interesting viability with them.

I know blizzard wont be nerfing the infestor after reading David Kim's response about it, but I still think they could revamp Hydralisks more viable, because right now they are not cost efficient enough to justify using them.
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Posts: 213
Change Hydras Range upgrade from +1 (5->6) to +2 (5->7)
Have them move faster on Creep than they do now (as default)

Definitely nerf Infestors slightly
Edited by Krikkitone on 11/7/2012 8:43 AM PST
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Posts: 2,949
Change Hydras Range upgrade from +1 (5->6) to +2 (5->7)Have them move faster on Creep than they do now (as default)Definitely nerf Infestors slightly


god only knows how bad this game would be if blizzard took balancing advice from players who dont even play the game.
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Posts: 626
Hydras at supply 1 can still be rolled by colossus, banes, siege tanks, blue flame hellions and everything else that can currently kill them since they are still weak. And since they cost what they do they are still not so easily massable as say roaches. 50 gas per hydra is a lot when you think of the little hp and how slow they are. I think that's what they should experiment with first...then you could start doing more technical things.
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Posts: 2,427
I'm a terran player but i've always said...

Infestor is too an all around unit... is so good that makes all other units bad...

i do agree, Hydra need a buff. they are awesome and a speed buff is a good idea...

speed up the hydra... tone down the infestor
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Posts: 3,666
The Infestor has to be good. It's the Zerg's only caster that helps out in combat.
I think Hydras should be back to 1 supply again though. Adjust their damage and let Zerg have strength in numbers again.
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Posts: 4,297
the hydra speed upgrade should be sufficient. Have you seen it? Yes it is hive tech, but having such fast hydras by default would be ridiculous. I think we will see them much more frequently in endgame
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Posts: 382
Buff Hydras HP and such, maybe around 80-85?

Hydras should spawn with the range upgrade.

Hydra speed is moved to lair tech.

Bonus dmg to massive researchable at the hydra den, only requires lair.

thoughts?
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