StarCraft® II

[HOTS]Repost: Hydra Buff

Posts: 2,083
There is one problem with Hydra buffs. IMO I think the Hydra is just as poorly designed like fungal.

Attributes of a Hydralisk...
1. Dps unit or a glass cannon
2. Big and tanky "powerful"
3. Slow but more "powerful"
4. Expensive
5. Flagship unit for zerg

Problems... due to its expensive cost and tanky "Terran Tier 3" attributes the Hydralisk will always get HARD countered by almost all of the common units in the game. Many of the units include...

Terran: Marines, Tanks
Protoss: Chargelots, Aoe tech
Zerg: Infestors, Hive, RoachLing, LingBling

IF we buff the Hydra in like...
- More health
- More damage
- More X number of X
The hard counters will still be HARD COUNTERS. Who cares if hydras have 90 hp? Marine stim or basic zealot archon will just roll hydras over. If we only buff the hydras in numbers at the end the only solution to hard counters is just to buff the hydra soo much that it will counter everything, even its former hard counters (hey 150hp hydras that does 15 damage and runs almost as fast as lings... imba)

In order to buff the Hydra...

I think we need to change its mechanic. Hydras are just... bad... as a unit in general in starcraft 2 no matter how we buff it. But in order to make hydras useful we need to give it another mechanic, another variable.

Ideas for Hydras...
Remove the speed upgrade. Give it another upgrade... Haste... 200min 200gas. Allow hydras to move while burrowed at high speeds (same speed as the speed upgrade). Also give it a balance check. Hydras will take 1.5 times as long to burrow and unburrow. Plus give it a screaming claw slashing unburrowing animation just for the fans and to take up the 1.5 times longer unburrow.
Reasons why for this upgrade...

1. It will allow the hydra to escape dangers like stimed marines or colossi better.
2. It will give zerg players a counter attack unit. Due to the hydras investment and high cost getting hydras for more aggressive play will hinder hive deathball process.
3. Lore wise this is correct. Hydras are known to unburrow on marines and ambush. It will be way better then the speed buff lore wise too. I still can't imagine hydras slithering like snakes at the same speed as unupgraded zerglings.
4. Promotes more raven responses and hopefully more oracles if bliz is smart enough to return good detection.
5. This is also "zergy". Ambushes. Burrowed. Poping out everywhere... thats zerg alright... screw free units.

Thoughts?

Add more ideas too...

Edit
Original Post in this thread: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7004695048?page=2
Edited by MappyTinfoil on 11/13/2012 3:30 PM PST
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Posts: 492
Sorry, what?
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Posts: 229
i forgot hydras existed
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Posts: 2,083
11/13/2012 04:32 PMPosted by LightningWar
Sorry, what?

aka do not buff the hydra in pure statistics. Buff them in mechanics.
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Posts: 2,083
11/13/2012 06:13 PMPosted by Essex
i forgot hydras existed

Well they are the #1 most used excuse to buff in return of an infestor is bad thread.
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Posts: 3,485
give them 110 hp, speed increased both on and off creep, and make them only 1 supply. Burrow move would be nice combo to make them synergize even better then roaches.

Zergs design as a whole has issues. the burrow mechanic is nice but detection from toss is so cheap now that its not very powerful. Terran scans kinda go the same way where as soon as u burrow you get scanned and boom its like u didnt do anything but hit the passive button. Burrow should probably provide some sort of protection when used in my opinion,
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Posts: 2,083
11/13/2012 08:18 PMPosted by Nightwolf
give them 110 hp, speed increased both on and off creep, and make them only 1 supply. Burrow move would be nice combo to make them synergize even better then roaches.

Don't really like hp buffs and attack buffs ect. Why cause 1 of the 2 thing will happen...

1. Nothing changed. Hydras still get beaten by marines, tanks, colossi, everything
2. Op. Hydras can now beat marines, tanks and most of its counters.

I prefere the burrow move alone since...

1. Hydras were already weak and combat incapable
2. Hydras still cost a lot. Good because in exchange of more aggression it will hinder zerg hive 1-a deathball toilet coin flips.
3. Interesting... more zergy in my opinion.

I think the burrow move will sync with just speed roaches not burrowed. Roaches move too slow underground. But what you can do is exploit their advantage of speed and replenishability to mass counter attack with roaches while using fast burrowed hydras to ambush the workers or any out of position units trying to defend... aka unsieged tanks or unsuspecting infestors or just a plain m-move colossi.
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Posts: 2,083
11/13/2012 08:18 PMPosted by Nightwolf
Zergs design as a whole has issues. the burrow mechanic is nice but detection from toss is so cheap now that its not very powerful. Terran scans kinda go the same way where as soon as u burrow you get scanned and boom its like u didnt do anything but hit the passive button. Burrow should probably provide some sort of protection when used in my opinion,

Even then this is why I want burrowed hydras to move faster than hydras unburrowed. That way they can run away better. To balance it hydras are forced under the queen of blades's dictatorship to scream and do a claw slashing animation when it unburrows thus making it unburrow 1.5times slower than normal units. If terrans scan you can just run away. If protoss has observers... look for the shimerings and run to a different spot. Or you can just 1-a roaches into battle to buy time while your "so what" detected hydras rush in burrowed and take out their strong units like tanks or colossi. Maybe even broodlords.
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Posts: 3,966
Groovylisks need 7 range. I don't care whether it's 6 + 1, or 5 + 2; They just need a range buff, that is all.
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Posts: 626
Make them 1 supply...leave everything else the same. I thought we were the "swarm" after all. Can't just max on them alone or most AOE will #*@*##@# them anyhow.
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Posts: 2,083
11/14/2012 09:42 PMPosted by DobisPR
Make them 1 supply...leave everything else the same. I thought we were the "swarm" after all. Can't just max on them alone or most AOE will #*@*##@# them anyhow.

Don't know how will 1 supply help.
Hydras will still get beaten by marines, tanks, protoss aoe, and literally everything.
1 supply will just allow you to build more hydras but hydras will still suck due to their role.
I still think pure out number buffs will do nothing. The unit will still have the same problems until they are buffed to become an unkillable unit.
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Posts: 2,083
11/13/2012 08:32 PMPosted by TornadoXIII
Groovylisks need 7 range. I don't care whether it's 6 + 1, or 5 + 2; They just need a range buff, that is all.

Hydras are so slow that range will just allow them to shoot better behind roaches... this might help in anti air except that hydras still die to any air support like raven hsm or protoss ground support.
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Posts: 377
Sorry but when you have a thousand games under your belt as Zerg then you can talk.

Till then leave the balance to Blizzard and the professionals.

Right now you look like a troll. You may be a very thoughtful troll, but still a troll.

Forgive me if I'm being too harsh. I don't mean to be but it seems to me that you are just blowing smoke.
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Posts: 1,613
Sorry but when you have a thousand games under your belt as Zerg then you can talk.

Till then leave the balance to Blizzard and the professionals.

Right now you look like a troll. You may be a very thoughtful troll, but still a troll.

Forgive me if I'm being too harsh. I don't mean to be but it seems to me that you are just blowing smoke.


Oh shaddap. My 2000 is enough for the both of us and I find his idea intriguing and I like it.

The normal buffs will never work, so the passive aggressive buff like this one changes the game but in an indirect fashion. I'd love to see this in beta just to see how it would affect the game.
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Posts: 655
All zerg units should burrow move.

Making hydras bigger and shoot farther would also be great. They do suck. Hydra should be roaches big brother not nerdy cousin. I would like them to be increased 50% in hp, dmg, build time, cost, but not supply.

It would also be nice if they gained some armor when burrowed, or maybe were only hit 50% of the time.
Edited by TheG on 11/15/2012 5:41 AM PST
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Posts: 1,172
Burrow move, while useful, would not fix the Hydra. Roaches have it because they need to get in close to be useful due to their crappy range. Hyrdas out range many of their opponents, so burrowing to get in close would only hurt them in the engagement.

The Hydra needs to be nerfed slightly, made 1 supply, and switched to a tier 1.5 unit. Movement speed and range upgrade on Lair. Then we buff the roach and put it in the place of the Hyrda. This would help Zergs initial AA weakness (spore crawler can go back to evo requirement), provide Zerg a better way to deal with early pressure, and make the signature Zerg unit a viable build once again.
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Posts: 14
11/15/2012 04:55 AMPosted by TheG
Hydra should be roaches big brother not nerdy cousin.


Made me lol. I agree completely.
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Posts: 626
Making them 1 supply will let you get enough that you will shred bio even worse than they do now if you have a meat shield for them. Making them faster and leaving their stats the way they are doesn't really help much since they die so fast. If you want more hp gotta take the damage down because they do a hellish amount of damage when they are sitting and shooting stuff. People always complain that the hydra is weak but its not meant to be the main backbone of your army. If you use it the way its intended then it is a very powerful tool, if you try to mass them and a move then you deserve to lose...
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Posts: 1,305
11/15/2012 08:16 AMPosted by DobisPR
Making them 1 supply will let you get enough that you will shred bio


Stopped reading after skipping to the bottom of the thread and seeing that post.

What we really need is a range buff. Range upgrade buffed to +2, moved it to hive to balance it out a bit, and possibly make base range 6, and hydra's set.

That, or switch hydra to T1 and only cost mins, switch roach to T2, and buff/nerf accordingly (idea there is to give zerg earlier AA).
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Posts: 3,485
They still need some sort of speed so you can actually kite with them. Nobody likes them because they are essentially a very expensive throw away unit. if you engage with them then thats it no micro options to try and get them to survive
Edited by Nightwolf on 11/17/2012 1:21 PM PST
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