[HOTS]Repost: Hydra Buff

Posts: 2,083
11/15/2012 06:24 AMPosted by DirtyD
Burrow move, while useful, would not fix the Hydra. Roaches have it because they need to get in close to be useful due to their crappy range. Hyrdas out range many of their opponents, so burrowing to get in close would only hurt them in the engagement.

Actually for roaches the burrow move is just for harassment. In general 1-a speed roaches will get similar if not better results. Speed maybe better then burrow since with the speed you can form a better concave. If you just burrow-move you are risking detection plus there is a delay when you unburrow. In general burrow on the roaches are just for counter attacking and becoming pure annoying. It doesn't have much combat use since they move too slow underground plus they just lack basic mobility and requires unnecessary apm.

For the hydras I want them to burrow to serve a counter attacking role. They do massive damage but they are soo weak and slow. With this burrow move on the hydra I plan for them to move FASTER underground then above ground. This way people can get creative with their hydras. Sneak past the enemy. Unburrow and kill off the reinforcements and reburrow/run to avoid contact with the main army and take too much damage. With burrow hydras will now be able to unleash their huge damage potent and run away before taking too much damage.

Plus this will sync well with lore (hydras were famous for unburrowing and ambushing various marines) and give zerg an aggressive path not to mention the investments of hydras will hinder their hive deathball process to make the game more fun.

Hydras range is pretty bad. Due to its speed and range it will get overpowered by tanks and colossi easily. With burrow move you can at least exploit the lack of mobility the tank and colossi provides. You can even catch them out of position and take a few kills. Plus with fast cloaked dps units on the field terrans and protoss players will consider a raven or oracle transition. The only flaw I see in this hydra change is the fact that sky toss will become less effective vs zerg now and will probably resume its tech of robo and templar.
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Posts: 2,083
11/15/2012 04:55 AMPosted by TheG
All zerg units should burrow move.

Hard to imagine ultralisks...

Making hydras bigger and shoot farther would also be great. They do suck. Hydra should be roaches big brother not nerdy cousin. I would like them to be increased 50% in hp, dmg, build time, cost, but not supply.

Oh no... more statistic buffs... making hydras bigger is actually bad. In a way it will reduce splash but other way around the hydra will struggle to get a better concave in battle. Similar to the thor. A thor is very big. Because of that, in battle they always get surrounded (not melee literally). In other words the enemy will have a great concave, firing at the thors while the thors get overwhelmed. I do not want the hydra to inherit this weakness.

I do not like the 50% buff since the hydra will still suck vs tanks, colossi, and it will STILL cost so much that marines will become even better vs them. Other way around the 50% buff may also become too much. If we keep buffing the hydra with junk like "more hp" "more damage" at the end nothing has changed except the fact that hydras just got better at 1-a. Eventually we will just buff them to the point that even siege tanks can't hold them off. When we buff the hydra in statistics there is no in between balanced. There is only underpowered or imba. One or the another.

Burrow move is enough...

Note: Burrowed hydras will move faster. Kinda like the previous speed hydra in the current beta except only accessible burrowed. Just saying to those who didn't know my intentions of this hydra redesign.
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Posts: 2,083
11/15/2012 06:24 AMPosted by DirtyD
The Hydra needs to be nerfed slightly, made 1 supply, and switched to a tier 1.5 unit. Movement speed and range upgrade on Lair. Then we buff the roach and put it in the place of the Hyrda. This would help Zergs initial AA weakness (spore crawler can go back to evo requirement), provide Zerg a better way to deal with early pressure, and make the signature Zerg unit a viable build once again.

We do not need another marine. Nor do we need another mini "ultralisk". Changing the tiers of the roach and hydra seems weird to me. It will help with the aa but is it necessary. Zerg lacks end game aa not really early game. Thats why in the end game infestors are over-abused.
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Posts: 2,083
What we really need is a range buff. Range upgrade buffed to +2, moved it to hive to balance it out a bit, and possibly make base range 6, and hydra's set.

That, or switch hydra to T1 and only cost mins, switch roach to T2, and buff/nerf accordingly (idea there is to give zerg earlier AA).

Hydras are tier 2. I would like to treat them as tier 2 and not hive in order to remove any broodlord infestor additions. If we were to buff the hydra that much (8 range bro) that will be imba. Why? Well cause all you do is 1-a... unlike stalkers where you must blink and shutter or bio where apm really kicks into gear.

I am pretty sure our buddy protoss won't want another marine to deal with. Zerg early aa is not much of a problem since spores and queens work great vs air.
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Posts: 796
well hydras.. they pretty op unit but it gets taken out easily against units with splash damage like the seige tank. bliz should give it a little more armor so it doesnt frigging die in one damn shot. also the dps is good and stuff so overall the hydra is a great dps unit. wish they had more armor. oh yeah and i think pretty much all zerg should be able to move underground i mean terran and toss could move when cloaked make it the same for zerg units too.
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Posts: 796
oh and the hydra shouldnt be lair tech. it should be hatch because if the other player goes mass air early, you really have no defense except queens which suck in full on engagements
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Posts: 796
ps nice name MappyTinfoil
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Posts: 2,083
11/15/2012 09:26 PMPosted by DEVASTATION
well hydras.. they pretty op unit but it gets taken out easily against units with splash damage like the seige tank. bliz should give it a little more armor so it doesnt frigging die in one damn shot. also the dps is good and stuff so overall the hydra is a great dps unit. wish they had more armor. oh yeah and i think pretty much all zerg should be able to move underground i mean terran and toss could move when cloaked make it the same for zerg units too.

Hydras are not op. They are too weak. Armor won't help since splash and burst dps ignores armor. Nothing will get done. At the end we will buff the hydra soo much that it will just 1-a everything. I would like a different role be added to the hydra.

Note: Marines can't cloak. Stalkers can't either. Only few units like ghosts or dts can cloak. Same with zerg. Not all units can move while burrowed.
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Posts: 2,083
11/15/2012 09:28 PMPosted by DEVASTATION
oh and the hydra shouldnt be lair tech. it should be hatch because if the other player goes mass air early, you really have no defense except queens which suck in full on engagements

Queens and spores are the best and most cost efficient anti air in the entire game besides for marines of course.

Edit: Also on a side note it is really hard to mass air early on. Before 10 min the only air you will ever see is probably 1-2 banshees, maybe a voidray rusher, 3-5 phoenixes, and medivacs. Not much. Lair finishes at 10-11 min so you should be good once mutas or heavy air comes into play. By then you should already have either infestors (highly recomend), spire access, or hydras ready to deal with air play.
Edited by MappyTinfoil on 11/15/2012 10:20 PM PST
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Posts: 2,083
11/15/2012 09:29 PMPosted by DEVASTATION
ps nice name MappyTinfoil

thanks
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Posts: 73
I've wanted Hydra's to burrow move for so long I mean it always shows them breaking through the ground all over the place in campaign. I honestly think this would help greatly.
+1
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Posts: 73
I've wanted Hydra's to burrow move for so long I mean it always shows them breaking through the ground all over the place in campaign. I honestly think this would help greatly.
+1
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Posts: 4,072
11/14/2012 10:42 PMPosted by MappyTinfoil
Make them 1 supply...leave everything else the same. I thought we were the "swarm" after all. Can't just max on them alone or most AOE will #*@*##@# them anyhow.

Don't know how will 1 supply help.
Hydras will still get beaten by marines, tanks, protoss aoe, and literally everything.
1 supply will just allow you to build more hydras but hydras will still suck due to their role.
I still think pure out number buffs will do nothing. The unit will still have the same problems until they are buffed to become an unkillable unit.


That would help immensely. Doubling the number of Hydras you have is a huge difference. For starters, that gives the enemy twice the number of targets to worry about. Also, if each one has 80 heath, your army has a lot more durability. If you had 20 Hydras as they are now, that's an army with 1600 health. If you took the same supply, and made 40 Hydras at 1 supply each, you have an army with 3200. That's a huge difference in how much punishment you can endure.
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Posts: 156
11/15/2012 08:34 PMPosted by MappyTinfoil
All zerg units should burrow move.

Hard to imagine ultralisks...


They can already dig down. May as well teach them how to dig forward.
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Posts: 3,485
Hydras are not op. They are too weak. Armor won't help since splash and burst dps ignores armor. Nothing will get done. At the end we will buff the hydra soo much that it will just 1-a everything. I would like a different role be added to the hydra.Note: Marines can't cloak. Stalkers can't either. Only few units like ghosts or dts can cloak. Same with zerg. Not all units can move while burrowed.


Yea i gotta admit it is pretty odd that siege tanks counter as much as they do. They have a high bonus damage to armored but still own majority of light units to very very well.
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Posts: 2,083
11/17/2012 11:18 AMPosted by Migrax

Don't know how will 1 supply help.
Hydras will still get beaten by marines, tanks, protoss aoe, and literally everything.
1 supply will just allow you to build more hydras but hydras will still suck due to their role.
I still think pure out number buffs will do nothing. The unit will still have the same problems until they are buffed to become an unkillable unit.


That would help immensely. Doubling the number of Hydras you have is a huge difference. For starters, that gives the enemy twice the number of targets to worry about. Also, if each one has 80 heath, your army has a lot more durability. If you had 20 Hydras as they are now, that's an army with 1600 health. If you took the same supply, and made 40 Hydras at 1 supply each, you have an army with 3200. That's a huge difference in how much punishment you can endure.

For starters hydras will still be bad. Oh... more hydras... more free money. Hydras cost a lot. Getting that much hydras will STILL make you vulnerable vs tanks, marines, and protoss aoe tech. Decreasing supply will just allow you to have more hydras to 1-a and laugh in the lower smurf leagues or a casual team game. It doesn't really help the hydras in use and viability nor will it promote more hydra usage.
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Posts: 2,083
11/17/2012 01:02 PMPosted by Brigade
They can already dig down. May as well teach them how to dig forward.

Its harder then you think. Digging down is one thing. Moving through dirt and soil is another.

You try it :P
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Posts: 2,083
11/17/2012 01:23 PMPosted by Nightwolf
Yea i gotta admit it is pretty odd that siege tanks counter as much as they do. They have a high bonus damage to armored but still own majority of light units to very very well.

The problem is that hydras cost so much. Yet they die so fast. Giving the hydra a decreased cost won't help since then hydras will become op due to their improved replenishability and their potential dps. Giving hydras more hp will also cause some imbalance. There is no way to buff them in between. Therefore I believe the hydra was just designed badly in wol. Hydras did work in broodwar but then again brood war meta and wol meta is different. All of the returning units from bw had adapted (marine buffed, zealots got charge, ect) but the hydra stayed the same therefor it was left in the dust. Similarly with the unchanged carrier.
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Posts: 67
I think if I had to pick one, it would be speed, the damn things are way too slow.

They're the only real practical early AA, Muta take too long, and they need to be fast enough to chase down Rays and Banshee, but chasing Banshee around - and those things are pretty damn slow, is like freaking keystone cops.
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Posts: 2,083
I think if I had to pick one, it would be speed, the damn things are way too slow.

They're the only real practical early AA, Muta take too long, and they need to be fast enough to chase down Rays and Banshee, but chasing Banshee around - and those things are pretty damn slow, is like freaking keystone cops.

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Infestors anyone? Anyone? There's your anti air. Enjoy.

Speed is a big concern but for hydras speed won't make them viable. Even with speed they still die to colossi and tanks/marines. Speed does allow hydras to form a better arc but I prefer my burrow speed just to promote aggressive play and less hive deathballs. With speed hydras can also join the corrupted broodlord infestor club. Plus burrowed units will promote more ravens and oracles to respond.
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