StarCraft® II

Zerg Players...

Posts: 382
I would like to hear your honest opinions on the immortal sentry all-in. Such as what's your opinion on it and what you typically do to counter it.

Much appreciated!
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Posts: 1,987
its a small force that cant be touched by anything and does a considerable amount of damage and other then that it had no hard counters
Edited by ZCksuen on 11/15/2012 9:22 AM PST
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Posts: 626
Its hard to stop but not impossible. The hard thing about it is that you can just not attack and get a third...in which case you forced the zerg to make a ton of units and not drones :-)
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Posts: 258
Curious as to why you would be asking us?

Anyway's, If scouted it can still be very hard to hold. Because you never know when the Protoss is going to move out, so finding the right tech time can be hard. If we stop droning and start to begin unit production too early, we miss out on a lot of economy, therefore won't come out as ahead as we'd like. Also if we begin it too late, we'll you know...

If it's going to come later, (obviously by 2-3 mins later then normal with no Protoss 3rd) we then have to consider teching to infestors to hold it. Because the bigger the allin-force, the more innefficient Roach/Ling becomes at holding it (natural chokes, FF, etc...).

The transition to tech, can be very scary, because dropping that kind of tech can sometimes mean 16 less roaches (which is a lot btw).

All in All, it's very hard to hold regardless. I've also seen Protoss try to macro behind it, before and after the attack. Which after investing so much in doing little or no damage, are substantially behind (assuming the Zerg read/reacted right) and just becomes painstakingly annoying to just go and kill.

Usually it just results in teching to BLord/Infestor to just finish Protoss off. Which can be annoying when you realize you've already won.
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Posts: 258
It's a legit question guys, Let's keep it productive.
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Posts: 4,122
Takes -10 skill to do. Takes +10 skill to counter. Only the lowest teir of newbs use the immortal+sentry allin.
Edited by tBz on 11/14/2012 7:53 PM PST
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Posts: 1,051
To stop it, it requires near-perfect macro/reaction for the first 9 minutes of the game by Z. That means droning properly, hitting every timing, stopping droning at the right time and getting units, getting the right unit comp, and upgrading. After that, you have to engage well. If anything is off, you lose. Toss can have a slightly off build, get delayed gasses (which actually throws me off and can screw up my read of the build), and move out 30s or even a minute later and still win a majority of games.

Also, it's a hard build to deal with since there are some tough variations, such as delayed immo/sentry with heavy upgrades and warp prism harass right before it hits (it delays toss by 30s, but usually throws off my build which of course means I lose).

I've always felt that the first 8-9 minutes of ZvP are extremely precise for Z; immo/sentry allins made this even more true.

However, as is true for all allins, if you DO have your first 9 minutes down pat, you can win the game in a relatively straightforward fashion. I like hydra/ling with 4-5 roaches mixed in; as long as I don't get caught too out of position, it isn't that tough to hold.
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Posts: 1,289
No skill easy mode all in, ridiculously difficult to defend, transitions way too easily into another overpowered composition by simply adding colossus.

Protoss cry about lategame ZvP, but they should try playing midgame ZvP as Z against a competent robotech P.
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Posts: 2,949
as long as toss keep allin'ing they will keep whining about late game.
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Posts: 382
Takes -10 skill to do. Takes +10 skill to counter. Only the lowest teir of newbs use the immortal+sentry allin.


So you'd rather protoss players let you keep droning? I could say the same about turtling behind a wall of spines with infestors until you get brood lords. Takes -10 skill to do, +10 skill to counter.

I'm just trying to understand the zerg perspective of the build. What counters most zerg players tend to go for, how they prepare for the push etc etc.
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Posts: 4,122
11/14/2012 09:05 PMPosted by Vest
I could say the same about turtling behind a wall of spines with infestors until you get brood lords. Takes -10 skill to do, +10 skill to counter.


Lol... It is ridiculously hard for a zerg to do that. The zerg has to have far better scouting and game sense. Being able to survive the mid-game and get BL is ridiculously hard. If YOU are letting a zerg do that easily then it is YOUR fault.

On the other hand, any idiot with a mouse can do a 7gate robo and beat master-level zergs. The zerg can play perfectly and still lose. The protoss can mess up and still win. Protoss who don't deserve platinum are mid-master because of this build.

Only the lowest tier of newbs use 7gate robo.
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Posts: 626
TBZ! I played you on ladder today. We had a helluva game lol
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Posts: 626
Immortal sentry makes the game one dimensional...you either hold it or flat out die...and if you hold it and don't finish the whole attacking army off you have to go to infestor broodlord or you won't be able to get through the ff's. Its dumb and boring but it IS effective if what you are looking for are ladder points...then again so is 6 pooling vs toss ;-)
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Posts: 10,823
If my opponent is good (relatively speaking) I lose.
If my opponent is bad I lose.
If my opponent is terrible, I'm still not very far ahead if at all, I struggle for a while and most likely lose.
But there's a small chance.

So you'd rather protoss players let you keep droning? I could say the same about turtling behind a wall of spines with infestors until you get brood lords. Takes -10 skill to do, +10 skill to counter.

I tried making a wall of Spines, a bunch of Zerglings and a few Roaches. You know what happenes? I lose.

So, how do I most often win against Protoss? I build a bunch of Drones. I build a bunch more Drones. I realize I just sealed my grave, an attack is coming and I have nothing to defend myself. I build more Drones, the Protoss changes their mind and decides to sit around. That's how most of my ZvP victories feel.
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Posts: 3,501
11/15/2012 01:06 AMPosted by Fawxkitteh
So, how do I most often win against Protoss? I build a bunch of Drones. I build a bunch more Drones. I realize I just sealed my grave, an attack is coming and I have nothing to defend myself. I build more Drones, the Protoss changes their mind and decides to sit around. That's how most of my ZvP victories feel.

Funny, my experience is that I try to be a "real man" and play for the late game, then after defending my 3rd against waves of roaches between 12-17 minutes and finally getting up my 200/200 supply and MS... I just get run over by Infestor/BL :)
I suppose I could just give up and do 2 base all-ins every game. Occasionally I do a blink all-in, but I very seldom do an immortal/sentry all-in.
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Posts: 1,987
No skill easy mode all in, ridiculously difficult to defend, transitions way too easily into another overpowered composition by simply adding colossus.

Protoss cry about lategame ZvP, but they should try playing midgame ZvP as Z against a competent robotech P.
well said my friend
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Posts: 1,736
My problem with it, is if I see the tell-tale signs of it I got ling/hydra because that just decimates it. However if the Protoss sees that I go ling/hydra then they just hide in their base till they have Colossus. You would think that's not a problem, but since Protoss will have so many FF through sentries they can indefinitely hold until the Colossus shows up. Now I have a bunch of supply, but more importantly gas, tied up into Hydras. Its much harder to recover from and has delayed getting to Broodlords.

I don't know my ZvP has gone down a notch because there's so much crap that Protoss can hit you with in the midgame and if you have the wrong comp they just walk over you. For example 4 Colossus with like 15 blink stalkers is completely stupid to fight against without BLs. If they keep the Colossus in the middle of their stalkers you can't engage with Corruptors without losing them all, and you can't engage the ground because Colossus melt everything Zerg has way too fast.
Edited by Rathelm on 11/15/2012 10:05 AM PST
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Posts: 462
....incoming current GSL spoilers!!!

Watching Sniper smash PartinG doing his "unstoppable" immortal sentry all in. That was a perfect hold. Ro 16 Group C code S. It was in game 1.

...I wish this forum had spoiler tags, to hide stuff. :(
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Posts: 700
Zerg requires perfect macro to respond to this.

This isn't QQing. And here's why.

The reason why protoss allins are so strong, is because from game second #1 to game second X, they have played it out perfectly. Spend the minerals here, there, build the gateways at this time, spend X amount of chronos on these buildings, their macro is perfect, or in theory it is. If a protoss player were to practice the build often, it's totally doable.

the allin is strong, and the earliest possible time the immosentry allin can hit is 9:45 on a place like antiga (if they don't probe scout so they can 16 nexus). Too early for drop play to kick in.

So...good luck, I need it too =[
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Posts: 256
Scout and tech to Hydras
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